Brian Grazer on the Power of Curiosity

ALISON BEARD: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I’m Alison Beard. I’m here today with the Oscar winning producer Brian Grazer, the man behind films like A Beautiful Mind and Apollo 13 and the new hit TV show, Empire. Mr. Grazer, thanks so much for joining me.

BRIAN GRAZER: Thanks so much.

ALISON BEARD: So you have a new book out called A Curious Mind, and it talks about the importance of curiosity. How has it helped you in your career?

BRIAN GRAZER: Basically, I’ve just used it sort of singularly as a superpower in my life in that I’ve just developed this kind of method of how I would create a bridge between myself and somebody else that’s expert in something other than the entertainment business.

And so I’ve used it to enlargen my life by meeting people that are experts in areas like architecture or fashion, or met two CIA directors and hundreds of [INAUDIBLE]. So basically by doing that, it’s added so much more depth to me.

And so, therefore, it empowers– enables me to have a better, more accurate sense of what ideas feel authentic and what ideas feel inauthentic or copycats of other ideas. So in my– in the business of storytelling, you look for– you know, storytelling meaning movies or television or documentaries– you’re looking for originality.

You’re looking for originality in the subject, and you’re looking for originality in terms of a point of view. And having all these different sort of curiosity conversations and being interested in other people and other subjects, it gives me a deeper, richer filter in which to create ideas and hear ideas.

And I gained a lot of confidence– actually, endless amount of confidence by doing these curiosity conversations. And whether they were two hour meetings with John Nash that turned into A Beautiful Mind or whether they were a sports agent that told me he was one of 100 assistant DAs. And I said, why do you wake up at 4:30 in the morning and do that, be one of 100 DAs, and get paid $11,000 a year? He said, because I thought I was making a difference.

You know, when I’m making a movie and every person in the entire movie business is trying to work with Tom Hanks or Russell Crowe or Denzel Washington or Eddie Murphy, I think I get the tip on the ball because I have available to me information on subjects that might not be available to somebody else.

I truly believe that Denzel Washington, when it comes to a jump ball or should I try this or should I try that, I think he might find me to be a more interesting person and know more about a varied group of subjects that other people don’t know, and that is interesting and intriguing to him. It probably shows him that I care about something other than just the binary dynamics of Hollywood show business.

ALISON BEARD: So most people think of curiosity as something that’s innate. Can you learn to be curious?

BRIAN GRAZER: Well, I think it all lies in the endless amount of questions you can ask when you’re really interested. So you have to assault it kind of like a scientist would assault a subatomic particle. You have to get very granular.

And what does that mean? It means a continued flow of interest and questions. So I’d say the movie Apollo 13, if you’d like a movie illustration. I didn’t know anything about aerodynamics, other than I’ve flown in an airplane when I was about 18 years old. But I had no expertise in aerodynamics. I knew very little about astronauts other than I felt they were heroes.

And what happened is when I was introduced to this 12 page treatment, outline, to what was going to be a book on Apollo 13 written by Jim Lovell, what I related to was survival. So I thought, wow, what would it be like to be really well-trained, a well-trained expert astronaut, and have what could be a tragedy, a problem in space, and how would one survive such a thing?

And then you start to think about what sort of resources are available to these three astronauts? And who do they communicate with? And how do they put a square peg in a round hole? And you have to have genuine interest in this perspective that interests you. So that was my entry point.

I don’t think I have a special amount of curiosity. I think I developed it. I think the most people have curiosity. However, if you look at the genetic template, I mean, some people have more than others.

But I think to use that curiosity, whether you have a large amount or whether you have a small amount, if you use it as an instrument or a tool to get deeper into a person’s life or into a subject, that takes thought. It does take work when you have to create interest.

You have to say, oh, what other subjects are out there other than the one I’m doing now? Or what other subjects are out there that I hadn’t thought about? Look, the most sexy guys, those romantic guys, are the ones that look into that girl’s eyes and asks her all the questions she’s always wanted to be asked. So it happens in romance and it happens in the full spectrum of life.

ALISON BEARD: But as a leader, at what point do you stop asking questions and start setting the direction?

BRIAN GRAZER: I do ask a lot of questions of people, and that is a way of gaining communal trust– creating a team. And once I feel like I’ve created team and I have a lot of intel on everybody, I’m ready to lead.

And sometimes you lead by giving someone else the power to lead. And I’ve done that many times on movies, expensive movies. I have, particularly, one I made 20 years ago which is called Far and Away. And it was very expensive. It was shot– it was shot in Montana on the plains. And then from there, we went to Ireland for several months. And Tom Cruise was the lead, along with Nicole Kidman.

And I realized after having a lot of intense contact with Tom that he can be a better leader than I. And with enough information and thought, I basically assigned him the role of being a leader, and he rose to the occasion and said, I will be the leader. I’ll take the lead.

And I said, look, this is an expensive movie. It’s a movie we all care about. We want it to go on time. And we want it to be great. And I defined our task, and I said, can you lead this? And he said, I’ll do it. I’ll take it. And he– everything as far as the production, went perfectly.

ALISON BEARD: Are you generally a delegator versus a hands-on, in the weeds sort of boss?

BRIAN GRAZER: I’m a delegator, yes. I’m a delegator, but because I started at the bottom, I know all the little things they’re doing. And I can sense without asking whether it’s getting done. And then when it’s not getting done and I feel I’m being bullshitted, or if I feel I’m being bullshitted, I then– I know what to say. I kind of think you have to know the weeds. You have to have lived in the weeds to delegate. I would not want to be the leader that never lived in the weeds.

ALISON BEARD: So how did you work your way up in the industry?

BRIAN GRAZER: Well, I learned– when I just started, I was just a law clerk. And I happened to be a Warner Brothers. It could’ve been anywhere. And I used that office as a bridge to meet every expert in the movie business and in the television business, because in order to– I just felt like I have to understand the language to pilot this plane out of the clouds.

ALISON BEARD: That sounds a lot like networking, but it seems like your conversations were something more. So what was the difference?

BRIAN GRAZER: That’s a really good question, because I didn’t really feel like I was networking. Because my disclaimer always was, can I please meet your boss, but I absolutely do not want a job. So every one of these conversations, I had never had an ask. And that made them feel safe. And it was honest. It was genuine. I just wanted to know how they did it. Or what is it about them that is different than someone else. Or what differentiated their journey.

So I really wasn’t networking. And actually, it was after about a year that I was doing this, I could go into almost any commissary and everyone– these big shots were going, hey, Brian. But that didn’t benefit me one bit. I still had to do what Lew Wasserman told me to– start manufacturing ideas, own something.

This isn’t going to work. You’re not getting hired. You don’t have enough money to buy things. So take this pencil, put it on this paper, and get going out of here. You might not be a good writer, but ideas– you can create ideas, and then you create a record of those ideas.

ALISON BEARD: Right. During that time, you also got to watch some of the great producers in action, and you’ve worked with some of the top actors and directors in Hollywood. So what have you learned from the best of them?

BRIAN GRAZER: All of the master directors that I know of and worked with– and I’ve worked with many. I’ve worked with Ron Howard and I’ve worked with Oliver Stone and I’ve worked with the Cohen brothers and I’ve worked with Ridley Scott– they all have, in their own way, humility and compassion and the desire to learn.

They’re leaders, for sure. You have to be a leader. But they have an enormous amount of compassion in the form of a not only know what you’re feeling, they’re interested in what you’re feeling. They put their interest in how you’re feeling and what you’re thinking higher than their own.

ALISON BEARD: Your partnership with Ron Howard as a director is legendary. Why do you all work so well together, and how have you managed to stay friends for so long?

BRIAN GRAZER: First, there’s the element– the mechanic of total respect. So it’s human respect, professional respect. And I have that for him, and he has that for me. And we don’t yell at each other. We don’t do anything that’s out of alignment in the world of how people treat one another with ultimate respect. So we’d never take each other for granted for 33 years. If we disagree, we think through our reaction. We’re not expedient, giving a quick reaction.

If I don’t like a music cue, or if I don’t like the music at all– which happened to me, where I really haven’t liked the music and I wanted to eliminate the entire composition, which is expensive and time consuming and particularly for him, time consuming– I don’t go, I hate this. I go, you know, I’m just not feeling it. And then he hears that. And then I will build my case as he’s ready to hear it.

And then sometimes when I can’t successfully build my case to make the change I want, I’ll be inventive. I’ll think of other options. I’ll think of how it could be done, or how we could twist it. Or I’ll say, well, why don’t we just bring some other people into the room and see what they think? And that’s one unit. But the other unit that probably supersedes that is that I love what he’s about as a person.

ALISON BEARD: Let me turn to a different subject. You talk in the book about the prevalence of rejection in Hollywood, even for someone like you. So when you’re working on an idea or a project and it’s not getting any traction, how do you know whether to keep at it or to move on?

BRIAN GRAZER: I feel like if I’m reaching out to the 10 smart people that I know to build my idea and it’s being built and it’s working and it’s sustaining itself, either because the idea is building or the central nerve of it is attractive, if those things– attractive and sustaining, then I keep building. When it doesn’t sustain interest, the heartbeat– the raw heartbeat of the idea, or the nerve– and I can’t build it, then I quit.

But my whole career really began on doing a movie about a mermaid, and literally, 1,000 people probably said to me, that’s the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard.

ALISON BEARD: Right.

BRIAN GRAZER: And so having had 1,000 people say, this is really stupid, it doesn’t make sense, there’s no such thing, mermaids are just– having that then, I know that nobody knows. I mean, if I have 1,000 people that say that and then it becomes– I get nominated for an Oscar and it’s the most successful movie at Disney in nine years, I know that no one knows. I know that if I know, and I can build it, then it’s worth doing.

I was making a love story, and they were judging a mermaid.

ALISON BEARD: Right. That movie, of course, launched the careers of Tom Hanks and Daryl Hannah. How do you identify the people who are going to be the biggest stars?

BRIAN GRAZER: Well, usually when you meet somebody, it’s like, are they holding my interest? Like am I curious about what they’re going to say? And then I have this sort of internal litmus test, like does that person make me nervous? And if I feel nervousness, that’s a good sign.

And that’s just law of motion, like do I feel anxious around Johnny Depp? I gave him his first job. I did. He had some intangible quality, this indefinable quality that made me– I was attracted to him and curious, but also nervous. And so those were good signs for me.

I do think, and I do have an argument with Ron about this, an ongoing 30-year argument, that I do think that sustaining, successful actors have to be smart. And he sometimes takes the opposite point of view. He’ll just go, that’s important, but it’s not essential. I probably think it’s essential.

ALISON BEARD: You’ve had many successes in your years, but also a couple of flops. So how do you deal with those failures, and what lessons do you take away?

BRIAN GRAZER: Most of the movies that I’ve made, successes and failure, begin with a dream or a fantasy. And the fantasy is a pretty complete visual look in my mind of what something looks like from beginning, middle, to end, and its effect on the consumer. So I literally get into almost like a meditative– it’s a creative visualization or meditative state, and I can visualize– everyone can visualize if you try.

And then you have to implement that fantasy or that vision with people that can execute the vision. And in the choices of those people, you can compromise– you’re forced to make decisions every time. And you know when you’re making a choice that you think it’s just good enough versus amazing or great or within the fantasy.

And every time I’ve thought, oh, I think this will work– it’s good enough– it’s never been good enough. It’s always turned into less. And every time I’ve failed, it’s my fault. I knew that I rationalized a less-good decision. A less-quality decision.

ALISON BEARD: There have been so many changes in the industry since you started. How have you managed to navigate them successfully?

BRIAN GRAZER: I do more television than movies. Well, there’s truth to that, because platforms change. So economics change, and platforms change. So some of the ideas that I would have had 20 years ago and I would’ve immediately turned into a film, I now feel like that message can be better served on the platform of television, whether it’s network cable or otherwise.

ALISON BEARD: Terrific. Well, it’s been such a pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much for your time.

BRIAN GRAZER: Great. OK. Perfect. Thanks so much.

ALISON BEARD: That was Hollywood producer Brian Grazer, the subject of our Life’s Work interview in the May issue of HBR. For more, go to hbr.org.