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Reproductive success improves after a single generation for wild descendants of hatchery origin salmon

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2K views 31 replies 10 participants last post by  JackLSmith 
#1 Ā·
#4 Ā· (Edited)
Quotes from the published paper: (bold text is my emphasis)

ā€œOur findings offer support for the continued use of HOR Chinook salmon to initially reestablish naturally spawning populations in habitats where they have been extirpated.ā€

ā€Our finding that F1 fitness is comparable to that of NORs is potentially mediated by the extent to which hatchery production has historically influenced the natural population in the McKenzie River. In the period from 2002 to 2015, pHOS averaged 27% in the McKenzie Riverā€


ā€¦. and most importantly:

ā€œFinally, we caution that our findings do not negate prior evidence that has demonstrated low RRS of HOR salmonids (Christie et al., 2014; Koch & Narum, 2021), and the risk that chronically elevated hatchery influence can pose to the genetic integrity and productivity of natural populations (McMillan et al., 2023; Willoughby & Christie, 2019). This caution is particularly salient to harvest augmentation programs intended to increase fishing and harvest opportunities without impairing naturally reproducing populations (ODFW, 2010).ā€


Bottom line is this study doesnā€™t speak to the question of whether continual hatchery supplementation is ok for increasing harvest opportunity (i.e., not relevant for how most anglers value hatcheries). It is a cool study showing that locally-derived hatchery fish might be useful for aiding recovery of imperiled wild runs
 
#6 Ā·
No one really needed a study to highlight this most essential of truths.

Of course gravel-borne spawners are going to have better reproductive success in the wild than their hatchery-borne parents! Yes even after only ONE generation removed from the hatchery!

WHY?

Because they have been subjected to the unrelenting and merciless selection pressures that Ma Nature threw at them at EVERY life stage of their natural history/life cycle. This is what is supposed to happen to the wild borne progeny of hatch parents that make it to gravel. Only the fittest progeny survive to do it all over again. Each subsequent generation is further refined such that only the best of the best survive, ultimately producing the fittest locally adapted stock possible.... at runsize volumes commensurate with the habitat's natural carrying capacity.
 
#7 Ā·
It is not unreasonable that hatchery adults return to a river in fewer numbers than adult wild fish. trying to make the comparison and assuming it is genetics is the problem. In how the fish were raised, we are looking at apples and oranges. In three decades, researchers are still looking for a genetic source. Adaptation to a new environment does not require a genetic change. Phenotypic Plasticity is also plausible where a species generates proteins to adapt to a new environment. When faced with another environment, they are able to change to match that environment, no gene modification. According to standard population genetics theory, it takes about 40 generations for a species to differentiate genetically to a point where the change is detectable. That would be about 160 years.
Quote from article:
"To our knowledge, only one other study has explicitly addressed this question in Chinook salmon (Nuetzel et al., 2023), and no study has compared the fitness of wild-born hatchery descendants to other wild-born Chinook salmon spawning alongside them in the same river. We found only weak evidence of fitness differences between F1s and NORs (i.e., wild-born individuals of unknown parentage), with direct contrasts of mean TLF suggesting that NORs produced more adult offspring than F1s in only one (2012) of 4ā€‰years."

F1s are hatchery offspring and TLF is total lifetime fitness. NORs are natural origin fish. The genetic theory is so entrenched in the science community as a theory suddenly turned fact, it will take time for new science like this paper to influence change. But change is coming.
 
#8 Ā·
Sallysea, can you be more specific than ā€œproteinsā€? Proteins are involved in a very broad suite of biochemical functions.

One thatā€™s relevant here is that proteins mediate epigenetic changes that have been described previously by OSU scientists as differentiating hatchery raised vs wild born fish. Sometimes epigenetic changes are heritable, sometimes reversible; thereā€™s a lot to be learned on this front. Thereā€™s been discussion of epigenetics here previously. No change in genes, large changes in gene expression. Is this what you mean when ā€a species generates proteinsā€?
 
#9 Ā·
Epigenetics has been mentioned many times as the possible source of the hatchery issue. Problem is no one has been able to document anything. Literature in general about epigenetics speaks more to behavior than physical change. The chart attached describes the DNA to protein pathway. It does not take permanent gene modification to generate proteins that offer success to the species in a changing environment. In the event the environment changes again, new proteins are formed to react to the new environment. If a species cannot respond, they perish. The common analogy used is bluegill raised in an overcrowded pond have stunted growth but still reach maturity and spawn. If you take the juveniles from this spawning and place them in a new pond with feed and plenty of room, they will revert back to normal size. The term here is phenotypic plasticity, I suppose some might confuse this with epigenetic change. Getting genetic change in any organism takes hundreds to thousands of years, assuming this happens in a few months in a hatchery is a tough pill to swallow.

Keep in mind our role as scientists is to question. Pierre Abelard, born in 1079AD said: The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting, by doubting we come to question and by searching we may come upon the truth.
We have a responsibility to question the status quo of the hatchery v wild current science, that is what we all should be doing.
 

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#15 Ā·
Not sure I'm on the right track. How in the heck are the lawsuits shutting down hatchery productions when no concrete evidence exists that genetics are the problem?
 
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#10 Ā·
Sallysea, again, can you be more specific? Thatā€™s a very generic model of protein synthesis, doesnā€™t address fish plasticity in HW context. Whatā€™s the new finding as it relates to fish? Iā€™m interested. No need to explain the esoteric, maybe just suggest a relevant publication.

From the rest, it seems you may not understand epigenetics. Epigenetics does not involve permanent gene modification. Also, epigenetic change can be very fast, just 1 generation, not hundreds or thousands of years. Existing genes are simply turned on/off. It occurs in salmon. Hereā€™s a review about salmon epigenetics with an eye towards using it to aid hatchery supplementation, may be of interest https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10641-022-01278-w

Your emphasis on ā€phenotypic changeā€ is fine, thatā€™s always there. Also, epigenetics are a major cause of phenotypic change.

Neat new study on this thread, and the authors are cautious to note that it does not contradict earlier findings, but adds to them
 
J
#12 Ā·
In Oregon we have removed hatchery fish from a multitude of rivers and streams. Please provide one example where it has resulted in a larger wild fish presence absent other efforts
SSPey said:
Sallysea, again, can you be more specific? Thatā€™s a very generic model of protein synthesis, doesnā€™t address fish plasticity in HW context. Whatā€™s the new finding as it relates to fish? Iā€™m interested. No need to explain the esoteric, maybe just suggest a relevant publication.

From the rest, it seems you may not understand epigenetics. Epigenetics does not involve permanent gene modification. Also, epigenetic change can be very fast, just 1 generation, not hundreds or thousands of years. Existing genes are simply turned on/off. It occurs in salmon. Hereā€™s a review about salmon epigenetics with an eye towards using it to aid hatchery supplementation, may be of interest https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10641-022-01278-w

Your emphasis on ā€phenotypic changeā€ is fine, thatā€™s always there. Also, epigenetics are a major cause of phenotypic change.

Neat new study on this thread, and the authors are cautious to note that it does not contradict earlier findings, but adds to them
Click to expand...
We have completely removed hatchery fish from a multitude of rivers in Oregon. Please provide an example where absent other efforts that has resulted in a larger wild run.
 
#14 Ā·
Sallysea said:
I think you can find what you need on the web. I did not reference epigenetic changes take thousands of years. Detection of epigenetic differences between HO and NO are there but a direct link of these differences to lower fitness is interesting but speculative.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you donā€™t know about this ā€œproteinā€ thing, I looked, couldnā€™t find anything unique.

btw, the document that you linked emphasizes DNA methylation as a regulator of gene expression. Thatā€™s epigenetics. I think the wall has been hit
 
#23 Ā·
Sallysea said:
My first concern is that this is an AFS article, an anti hatchery organization.
Click to expand...
wow. Just wow. So wrong. So unbelievably wrong.

Sallysea said:
A search of the CMP 12 year review indicated all coho numbers were up in those critical years. 2006-2014.
View attachment 1035578

a look at ocean conditions utilizing 16 factors demonstrates why the coho did well.
View attachment 1035579
Further exam indicated all the Oregon coastal rivers had similar patterns of improvement over the 2006 -2014 years.
Click to expand...
The BACI analysis used by the authors, which compares trends in the Salmon R to adjacent basins, addresses this directly.
 
B
#24 Ā·
The naturally spawning coho in the Salmon River (which are mostly progeny of hatchery fish) are doing okay because they were able to do an amazing restoration of the estuary. This, of course was conveniently left out of the conversation.

It has little to nothing to do with ending hatchery releases.

Unfortunately this was a rare opportunity and is not feasible in most rivers.

Just bringing forth an inconvenient truth. ;)
 
#27 Ā·
FFS!!! Me and my distinguished angler across the aisle have had this out enough to make your eyes bleed!

I was pilloried for suggesting to the unclipped cult that epigenetics from hatchery to wild are equal to wild to hatchery. Just fā€™ng cut in half.

And here we go from some lab that my eyeballs knew, KNEW, were right all along soā€¦.

Wild fish advocacy groups gave nothing to do with fish. Itā€™s about control, who can fish for what, how, and how dare you not take your EV to the river. Fā€™ them kids mining cobalt, as long as I can roll cast the hatch to fish that donā€™t exist, itā€™s good.

To my angling friends who desire catching above fishing, shake my hand when Iā€™m busted for drifting a glob of eggs through Steamboat, I matched the hatch baby.

Love ya, I catch and kill more fish thanks to yā€™all.
 
#30 Ā·
SSPey said:
whole paper link in post 21
Click to expand...
B. Coastal said:
Ya, whatever.
I went back to check, and apparently it is just the abstract that you posted that I read. Sure not going to pay to see the whole paper, but okay you got me. :)
Maybe it wasn't left out, but I stand by my other statements and have no desire to engage in yet another tiresome hatchery vs. "wild" debate again.
Have a good night
Click to expand...
I agree, time to move on. Going fishing in a couple of hours.
 
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