In his third feature outing with ascendant genre filmmaker Ari Aster on Beau Is Afraid, Lars Knudsen produced the duo’s most ambitious, thought-provoking and outlandish work yet — a nightmare comedy of staggeringly detailed vision that is sure to engender conversation.
A nearly-three-hour epic reuniting the pair with A24, this deeply unsettling and quite funny feature burrows into the psyche of Beau (Joaquin Phoenix), a man-child riddled with anxiety who exists in a world in which each of his worst fears is bound to come true. The film bears the framework of a Grimm’s fairy tale à la Hansel and Gretel, watching as Beau finds himself in increasingly surreal scenarios while on a journey on foot to his mother’s house.
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For Aster and Knudsen, Beau Is Afraid comes on the heels of Midsommar, an astonishingly dark folk horror starring Florence Pugh, which the former insists is “a joke.” Prior to that acclaimed film, which grossed over $48M worldwide, was the effort that put Aster on the map — the psychological horror Hereditary, starring Toni Collette, which generated huge buzz out of Sundance 2018 and went on to secure $82M globally, holding down the title of A24‘s highest-grossing film up until the unveiling of Everything Everywhere All at Once.
What’s not been discussed up till now about this masterwork, which secured Aster’s position on A24’s roster of powerful up-and-comers, is a bitter fight for final cut on the project between Ari & Knudsen and an unnamed financier, which almost compromised the Hereditary filmmaker’s highly personal, career-launching vision.
A New & Documentary, Gotham and Independent Spirit Award winner, as well as a BAFTA nominee, Knudsen was already a highly established producer prior to connecting with Aster, after collaborating with such big-name indie filmmakers as Andrea Arnold (American Honey), Ira Sachs (Little Men, Keep the Lights On, Love Is Strange), Robert Eggers (The Witch), David Lowery (Ain’t Them Bodies Saints), Mike Mills (Beginners) and Kelly Reichardt (Old Joy).
But it was the producer’s trial by fire alongside Aster, in the effort to preserve the essence of Hereditary, that would build trust between the two and set the stage for the next stage of their careers, as partners in the buzzy production company Square Peg, focused on elevating emerging artists, which already has a new Western project with Phoenix in the works.
As Beau Is Afraid hits theaters in New York and Los Angeles, Knudsen speaks about the battle for creative control on Hereditary, helping Aster to realize his grand vision for his latest feature, his appreciation of A24 as a longtime friend and collaborator of the studio, what we can expect from future features directed by his collaborator and more.
DEADLINE: I know Ari initially planned on making Beau Is Afraid as his first feature. But when did he first discuss the project with you?
LARS KNUDSEN: I think early on in Hereditary, when we were in prep, we were just sitting down and talking about all the projects and ideas he had. During his years when he was trying to get films made, he was just writing and writing, and obviously Hereditary was the first one. Midsommar, he had a draft of that, and Beau was something, he had a work in progress. There’s like two or three other things that maybe we’ll make them, maybe not. But he just had all these ideas and first drafts of scripts.
We kind of always knew that after Hereditary was going to be Midsommar because that was already being set up with A24, so we knew we’d go back to back. And then after Midsommar, we had conversations about what should be next. Then, when the pandemic hit, he took that time to really dive into Beau, and really rewrite it…The spine was there, but it became something very different than what it was originally.
But I had always sort of seen the order. Like, Hereditary, Midsommar, Beau just made a lot of sense. I think the biggest challenge was just that with Hereditary, and I think Midsommar… Obviously, Midsommar is a horror movie, [though] I always say it feels more like almost an adult fairy tale of sorts. But being marketed as horror movies. I knew the challenge with Beau would obviously be, it’s a different genre — but it feels very much like an Ari Aster movie, which I think you’d agree with.
DEADLINE: There’s something about Beau that’s also very much like a fairy tale…
KNUDSEN: Yeah, exactly. I think everything Ari does is going to be sort of a different genre. That’s what I love about Ari, is that the next projects he wants to do are going to be in a different genre, different world — something completely original, but very much true to his style, which is exciting for me as a producer. You have to keep challenging yourself because nothing will be the same.
DEADLINE: How exactly did you first come to connect with Ari?
KNUDSEN: I had a company called Parts & Labor where we produced 30 indies, the biggest one being The Witch — but everything from Beginners to just a lot of low-budget movies. When my partner and I split up, I was at a place where I was ready to receive whatever was going to come to me, and Hereditary, it literally just fell in my lap. It’s one of the things I’m most grateful for because it completely changed my career, or at least the next part of my career.
It’s a longer story, but obviously there was a financier, he needed a producer, and I just happened to be at the right time, at the right place. And the experience of making that movie with that financier was really just not pleasant at all. [Laughs] But it brought Ari and I closer to each other. I think when you go through extreme challenges together, it’ll bring you closer. So, the only good thing that came out of that experience with that person was that it got us closer, and we committed to each other. And then in doing so, we also wanted to build a company where we could work with filmmakers that we’re really passionate about, and also protect them. Because I think that it can get quite tricky out there, especially with young filmmakers.
DEADLINE: What was at the crux of the tension between yourselves and Hereditary‘s financier?
KNUDSEN: I mean, it’s been five years now, right? I think the thing with Hereditary was, Ari was young. Ari did not have the rights to his own script, right? Like, he didn’t have final cut. I came on after all those things happened, so when you have a financier who has final cut, we go out and make the movie, but he’s just going to sit back and wait till he gets a director’s cut, and then he’s going to pounce on it. And obviously, that’s an old-school way of doing it that we’ve seen, right? So for us, it was just about, “One step at a time. We’re going to make the movie as best as we can.” And then you know that that person’s going to come in and maybe take over.
It was a really hard time, but we got through it. It got us closer, and it strengthened our relationship with A24. So, if I could undo it, I would. But I guess something good came out of it.
DEADLINE: Having said all this, is the version of Hereditary we’ve seen Ari’s cut, or the financier’s?
KNUDSEN: It was [Ari’s]. It was just a long thing. It all worked out, but when you’re in it, it feels like it’s not going to. But you just have to keep pushing through, trying to be steps ahead. I guess that’s part of producing, too. My whole thing has always been, you’ve got to always protect the filmmakers you’re working with. Part of my job, at least, is to always do that, because my entire reputation is bad if I don’t do that. Like, I don’t have a job, you know?
DEADLINE: Having worked with so many great indie directors, what do you identify with, as far as the stories Ari specifically has chosen to tell? It seems like you certainly identify with his level of ambition as a filmmaker.
KNUDSEN: Yeah. I feel like all my work prior had prepared me to work with Ari. I think if I hadn’t had all those years of experience working with really low-budget movies and the challenges there, or working with filmmakers like Andrea Arnold, or even Robert Eggers, who I still work with…But if I hadn’t have had those experiences, I wouldn’t have been able to surrender to Ari’s way of working, because Ari’s way of working is, he sets the bar so high for himself on every movie. Like, even if we’re going into the next one, already at the outset, he has to tell himself that this is going to be the most ambitious, the hardest thing he’s ever done. And he’s a perfectionist, too. He keeps pushing himself because he wants to challenge himself, basically, every time. And that’s what I love about him.
Rob [Eggers], too, they’re both very technical, so I think both storytelling and the way they work with the camera is extremely ambitious. And I think that having done all the work I did before sort of prepared me to be able to not be freaked out by that level of ambition.
And when you see Beau Is Afraid, too, I think it was an extraordinarily challenging film to produce because you have all these different worlds, and the level of detail in each one, everything is just at a very, very high level. And what people sometimes forget when they watch movies is, Well, when you’re in that house with Amy Ryan and Nathan Lane, we only have that house for 10 days. And if we don’t make those days, we can’t just add. It’s almost like six short films that you have to shoot out, and there’s no backup plan if you get delayed or don’t do it. The whole movie was just on a very, very tight schedule where nothing could go wrong, and obviously, things go wrong all the time, so it’s just about always adapting.
DEADLINE: The level of detail in the mise en scène of Beau Is Afraid really is astonishing — particularly when it comes to the film’s long opening chapter, taking place in and around Beau’s apartment. What did achieving that come down to?
KNUDSEN: Fiona Crombie was our production designer, and she’s excellent. And I think this film, more than any film, is so Ari. Not [that] the story is about him, but everything in the movie feels like Ari, his sense of humor. Especially that [opening] part of the movie, he was obsessing about every little detail. I mean, if you do a freeze frame on the street, you’ll see all the businesses on the street. Everything that no one’s really ever going to see is there. Every little detail was thought through and was something that he thought was really funny, so there’s a lot of little things to pick up on.
So, in that sense too, it’s a grueling prep. Because when you go into that kind of detail in that section of the movie and then you think about [the one] we call…the “Hero Beau Sequence,” in the forest, that whole thing was almost like a movie in itself that demanded everyone’s time. So, it was a lot. And then there’s still a pandemic going on, quarantining and testing. And even in Montreal, there was like a curfew when we arrived. That’s all the behind-the-scenes stuff that happens that you wouldn’t really think about, but I do. [Laughs]
DEADLINE: Were those chaotic street scenes outside Beau’s apartment shot on a backlot?
KNUDSEN: No. The apartment, we built on a stage, and then the street, we locked down a street in downtown Montreal for a handful of days. And it’s rain or shine. We got so lucky because we’re completely weather-dependent, and if it had rained…It rained a little bit on one day. But those were the days we had to shoot it, and there’s weather continuity everyday, right? Because it’s outside. But that week, someone was looking over us because we were able to get it done.
DEADLINE: You also mentioned the incredible storybook-like sequence in the forest. You brought in the filmmakers behind the acclaimed stop-motion horror The Wolf House to provide the animation for that?
KNUDSEN: Yeah, two filmmakers from Chile, Joaquín [Cociña] and Cristobal [León]. Ari loved their film, and in prep, we were still trying to figure out what it was going to look like. And him having just recently seen their film, he reached out to them and asked them. We wrapped a year and a half ago; it’s almost been two years since we started prep. They finished last July, so it’s been a long process with them, to do it. They love [the film], and I hope they get a lot of recognition from it because they’re truly original.
DEADLINE: One of the other things that struck me about Beau Is Afraid is the unusual way in which Ari uses background performers, casting a ton of them for parts with little dialogue, if any, who nonetheless feature very prominently on screen — terrorizing Beau outside his apartment, for example...
KNUDSEN: That was a big priority for him from the outset. For a lot of filmmakers I work with, casting is always tricky because you have almost three different layers, where you have your main cast, supporting cast, day players and background. And the way that background is often cast is, you look at pictures, so you just X off who you want, but you can’t really audition them. You don’t really know how they’re going to be on the day. And I think for Ari, it was just very, very important to make especially the first part feel alive, and real, and authentic to that world. So, it was just a process where the casting of the background was as important as the casting of actors who speak in the film, which I love about Ari. But that adds another degree of challenge because that’s not normally how it’s done. You have to add more time and resources to really do that, but I’m glad we did it because it really makes that portion of the film work.
DEADLINE: Ari has talked about how much he loved having Joaquin Phoenix as a creative partner on this project, as someone with total commitment to the role he’s playing. How was your experience working with him?
KNUDSEN: Well, I mean, it’s no secret that Joaquin was Ari’s first choice. And obviously, any actor who commits to the role the way that Joaquin does, you have to question whether or not you want to do it. So, I think they had a period of time of talking through the character and the script for nine months or longer, just because we couldn’t start because of the pandemic. I think during that process, they got to know each other, and Joaquin got a feel for how Ari is, as a person, more than anything. So, when he then arrived, like a month before we started shooting, they were sort of hitting the ground running, and I think they’re just the perfect match for each other. With Ari’s ambitions and how he wants to work, and with Joaquin’s process, the two of them are just almost meant to worth together. And I know that they’re both extraordinarily proud of the film. Not to sound corny, but it’s a really beautiful thing to see them collaborate, and it makes my job exciting, to see that.
DEADLINE: Tell us about your experience working with A24. It seems to me that they’re doing something extremely difficult and exciting for film, revitalizing the medium for audiences of all ages.
KNUDSEN: I think the world of them. I’ve been working with them since, as acquisitions, The Witch and American Honey, and movies like that. So, I’ve known them for a very long time. People like David Fenkel, when I was producing back in the day, when he was at ThinkFilm and Oscilloscope, I’ve known him for a long time. And so I think to work this closely with them, and having known them for a long time, they do truly feel like friends at this point. We have a TV deal with them, and we work with them on the film side a lot, so a lot of our upcoming movies that aren’t directed by Ari are going to be with them.
But I think that what makes them so unique is that they’re just extraordinarily supportive. My way of producing is that I have to adapt to every filmmaker’s process in order for me to be able to do my job their way, and I think for them as a studio, because they’re selfless and there’s not a person behind the company in that same sense, they are able to remove the ego and the identities from that and just have the films carry it. And I think that’s what I love about how they work, where whenever we do Ari’s movies, they know how Ari works, and they know how I work with him, so they’re supportive about that.
They don’t try to come in and change the process because I think they know that when you work with filmmakers, a lot of the filmmakers do just have a specific way of working. And if you trust the process and trust the team, then they’re value added and they come in and help really where they need to, and then in that way, it feels like a collaboration. So, I think even when you get notes or feedback, you want that feedback because you trust them. Sometimes, with a studio, there’s always that kind of feeling like, “It’s us against them.” But with A24, it’s never, ever felt like its us against them. I always feel like we’re in this together, and you’re happy, we’re happy. It’s going to be good for everyone. And they’re just easy to talk to. So, it doesn’t ever get heated to a point where you feel like you have to retreat and fight, if that makes sense.
This movie, no matter how you put it, we’ll be forever grateful for them to get behind it because it’s not an “easy” movie to read and say, “Let’s go make this movie.” It was really trusting that Ari was going to make something really unique and spectacular, and for them to have been behind it all the way…I think that every movie that Ari makes, there’s always a nervousness about how audiences are going to respond to it. I think with Hereditary, we really, honestly had no idea. Same thing with Midsommar, and especially on this one. So, I think for them, I can only imagine the anxiety that you have when we’re delivering an Ari Aster movie, because it is going to be different and original every time.
DEADLINE: Do you think there will always be an undercurrent of horror to the projects you make with Ari?
KNUDSEN: Or genre. Maybe not horror, but he is a genre filmmaker. I don’t know when he’ll make another horror movie again, but different genres, for sure.
DEADLINE: Films like Beau and Everything Everywhere make you question the notion of handing out a $200M budget for a film, when so much can be done with so much less. You were working here with around $35M, though it’s hard to imagine how you were able to get this film done for just that much…
KNUDSEN: Honestly, I don’t know, either. Because the level of ambition is so high…Some of my best friends are producers because I think we have our own little therapy sessions. Because I think part of my job is to always remain cool on the outside, even though everything is falling apart [on the inside] because of the pressure. So, I think on a movie like Beau…I sort of joke around with Ari that he doesn’t want to make an impossible movie, but he wants to make a movie that’s right at the tip of impossible, where it’s like near impossible. It’s always about getting right there, and it’s my job to make sure that we don’t tip over. I do think it’s difficult, and I think you just have to trust that you know what you’re doing, and trust the crew that you’re working with — and, obviously have real, transparent communication with A24. Because I think the worst thing you can do with the studio is to just not communicate.
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