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Watch In Conversation With President Andrzej Duda - Bloomberg

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00:00Please welcome to the stage His Excellency Andre Duda, president of the Republic of Poland, for a conversation with Bloomberg's John Micklethwait. It's really tricky for me to talk. President Duda, thank you for talking to Bloomberg and indeed to this whole forum. We will come back to Poland in a second, but a bit like the previous conversation began with one conflict. We should look at Ukraine, where things are happening. And exactly a year ago on this stage, Viktor Orban told me on stage there is no victory for Ukraine. Do you think, bearing in mind what is happening at the moment that is now correct. Those are lazy. I mean, it depends how you understand that question of victory scheme. We first and foremost are looking at this imam Nigeria's attack, but it does not. And I hope this is also how the whole free world is looking at the situation. Namely, we must not allow that Russia wins Ukraine Once again. Let me repeat, the free world must not, I believe, allow Russia to win the war in Ukraine. Why? We have got a long historical experience with Russia. The new British move, says Rosier. We have been occupied the Russian on many occasions. We as Poland members are true. We lived through very difficult moments in our history. We have lost many members of our families who are murdered by Russians under different circumstances. And today we know one thing, that Russian imperialism is reborn and it is not really important how what to name this imperialism has at a given moment in history. If we are speaking about our imperialism, a Soviet imperialism, or Putin's imperialism, which is now this is actually the same Russian imperialism which has got the same features, it is greedy, it is a kind of colonial imperialism. And to be frank, the thing is that you Su Keenan they are not looking for countries far away to subjugate them, to convert them, but they are subjugating countries in the neighbourhood of Russia. By doing so they are spreading their influence and by doing so they are building their sphere of exploitation of other states and nations. Today they want to do it with Ukraine that we know very well that if they managed to win in Ukraine, if they managed to accomplish their goals, they will keep on attacking, they will attack other countries. Perhaps these could be the Baltic states, perhaps this could be Finland, perhaps this could be Poland, or perhaps these could be other countries which used to be part of the Russian sphere of influence. Perhaps they will try to attack in the southern direction or the eastern direction. But if they win, if the free world allows Putin allows Russia to win this war in Germany, then we will have to do with another Russian aggression. A very powerful statement. I know that throughout this war you have always been a passionate supporter of Ukraine, and Poland has also given a lot of equipment more than most other countries. But Romania has now just said it would send Patriot systems to Ukraine. And I wonder, is Poland ready to follow suit and send Patriot systems as well? Back to Pravda. Yes, it is true. Right from the beginning of the war, we have been helping Ukraine in a very significant way. And I want to say it in a very firm way. It tends to be forgotten sometimes. We were the very first country which sent a lot of armaments to Ukraine. We were the ones who sent our main battle tanks. In total, we have donated to the Ukrainians more than 300 main battle tanks from the stocks of our armed forces. We have donated to Ukraine. Of our equipment. Of the value of 4 billion U.S. dollars from that stocks of our armed forces. And we keep supporting Ukraine militarily all the time. But please bear in mind that we are the ones who are potentially in this zone of risk threat. And that is why. And we are moderate and modernizing our armed forces to a huge extent. Right now we are spending more than 4% of our GDP on defense in Poland. This is totally accepted and approved off by the Polish people. We need to stress that we are a democratic state. We have got elections where the authorities are elected. And, of course, the issue of spending. This is the burden on the taxpayers. And this is always a very important issue. But right now, nobody is disputing that in Poland. Everybody understands that we have to spend a lot of money to modernize our armed forces. And this is what we are doing right now. Indeed, we are buying modern defense systems in the United States, also in South Korea. And in this way, we are also adding new equipment to our stocks. We need to modernize as soon as possible. First of all, what we have to do is to replenish our stocks, also filling up for what we donated to Ukraine, because we have donated that equipment from our soldiers, from the stocks of our soldiers. Today, we are purchasing new equipment for them precisely so that they have means and way to defend Poland if aggression happened. But let me stress once again, we keep supporting Ukraine all the time. And first and foremost, we keep lobbying all over the world and across all our allies. We are lobbying to support Ukraine because we believe that this is a key importance right now in terms of survival for Ukraine and when it comes to Russia to win the war. But Patriot systems, yes or no, that was the question. Mistake right now, pure or simple. We are only getting the first elements of missile defense system patriot, which we have ordered in the United States, shared them that we made that order. We ordered that it would've been seven years ago. Right now, the first elements of this system are coming to Poland. So it's difficult to say right now that we could be providing Patriot systems to grid because as a matter of fact, we still do not have this system in Poland. We do not have fully complete to provide for our own defense, because right now we are only in the process of building our air defense system. It's going to be a three layered system, starting from the Patriot system through a medium range system to low range system. You put forward a very passionate argument for how dangerous Russian imperialism is, and you also expressed all the different reasons why we need to stop Putin in this. But going back to that question at the beginning and the moment that shows no sign of Russia retreating, it seems to be taking more territory. Do you worry that America has acted too late? Yes, tomatoes, Bitcoin itself. I am very calm and I need to stress very firmly. America right now is giving the biggest support to Ukraine. And this American support to defend Ukraine is of absolutely key importance. Without that support, probably Ukraine would not be able to defend itself from Russian aggression at all. And Ukraine is defending itself. So let me stress, we were the first ones indeed, who donated tanks and we offered Ukraine to also supply fighter jets, make 29, which Ukrainian pilots were able to operate right away. This is what we did. We donated MiG 29 jets to Ukraine, but indeed, the help from the United States, from the biggest military power in the world, is the biggest to Ukraine and the most significant. Let me stress very strongly the standards have not shown them. I'm grateful to the United States of America, to U.S. authorities. I am grateful to the U.S. Congress, Senate, both to the Senate and to the House for taking the decision. I'm also grateful to President Joe Biden for taking the decision to give to Ukraine huge funds for defense. A decision was recently taken and in the last two months, I also had conversations in the United States about that. I talked, among others, to Speaker of the House Mike Johnson. I talked to him in March. That was when I was invited by President Joe Biden. I also visited Congress where I met with representatives of the Senate. I also met representatives of the House of Representatives precisely with Speaker Mike Jensen. We talked about that. And I'm very much satisfied and I'm very grateful to the U.S. authorities that they made the decision to support Ukraine because these assurances call for Russian offensive is approaching. The fact that it will happen is absolutely certain. But actually it is all about climate in our region, in our part of the world. Probably within the next few weeks, we can expect that offensive to happen when only the ground is dry and when it stops being a bit muddy. That because spraying actually makes it impossible for heavy equipment to move Ukrainians on the ground in Ukraine. So when only it gets drier, it probably Russian offensive will start. And I believe that the Ukrainian armed forces that the defenders of Ukraine will have received that support by then party if they feel that this support is coming right now in Ukraine to Ukraine. And we are seeing that in Poland because we are a state which is that transit route to Ukraine and actually all the assistance to Ukraine goes through Poland. And also this is the way we are supporting the defenders of Ukraine by making available our infrastructure, our roads and our airports, our seaports. We are making them available for the support of Ukraine to be transported. And this is happening. This support is going right now. That sounds to me like better late than never. But when you also tell you talked about meeting American officials, Donald Trump, you also saw and the interesting question is, what will he do about Ukraine? There is a theory out there held by many people that Vladimir Putin is hanging on until Donald Trump comes in again, to quote to Viktor Orban, who sat here last year, he said that Trump won't give a penny to Ukraine if he's reelected. Was that what he told you as well? Do you trust Donald Trump to keep going in the way you've just said? Now, Mrs. Bannon, President Donald Trump We have known each other with President elect Trump for a long time because I have been the president of Poland for almost nine years now. And throughout my whole first term in Trump in office, when President Trump was also in office, we collaborated with each other. So it is fair to say that I'm convinced that President Donald Trump is thinking in a strategic way about U.S. interests. I have no doubt about that. But what I want to stress very strongly, I'm personally convinced that the duty of Polish authorities, any time the president of Poland, of the prime minister of Poland, Ukraine, prime minister of our government, of all the important politicians, is to keep as good relations as possible with the United States. This is a mutual interest. Just like the Prime Minister, His Highness has just said on this stage, Qatar has got its own interests with the United States strategic interests, and the United States has its interests with Qatar. So this is not a question of which administration is in power at a given point in time, whether these are Democrats or Republicans, and from which side of the political stage the president comes. And we are working exactly on the same assumption in Poland. We believe that the United States has got its strategic interests in Poland and Poland has got its strategic interests with the United States. This is the most powerful military superpower of the world, the guarantor of security, the strongest country in the nature. We are members of NATO. And my duty as president of Poland is to maintain as good relations as possible with U.S. authorities. That is why in March and met with President Joe Biden, I was invited by him to come to the White House. We talked and that is why I met with representatives of the Congress, as I have just said, including Speaker Johnson. And less than a month ago, indeed, I also met with President Donald Trump. We talked about the political topics, different political topics for a long time. And let me say the following. I I'm looking calmly at the election process in the United States because I'm convinced that these elections will be won by the strategic friend of Poland. But there is a contradiction at the beginning you began with this, I think, very correct version of Russian imperialism. You said that if Ukraine falls, Poland could be next. You said that Russia is on the march. And yet there is this doubt about what Donald Trump would do. Do you think that if he was prepared to let Ukraine go, he could also let Poland go? Poland has a history of allies that did not support it when it needed it. As you know. Yeah. No, I did not say that. Poland will be next. I am doing everything to prevent it. And this is the core of my task. That is why we are spending so much on defense today just to make sure that Poland is not attacked. Precisely. To let Russia see with its own eyes that it does not pay off to attack Russia because one cannot win that war on Russia. Russia has seen that in Ukraine recently that Obering said this If the defenders have got their refined modern equipment and first and foremost, if they have got big hearts to fight and Pulse have always had big hearts to fight. This is what we are famous for. We have demonstrated that throughout our history and including in the Second World War. Russians know that as well, because we defeated them in 1920 near Warsaw, and they lost war against Poland. So they know that if we are well equipped, we will defend our country. And then I believe that Russians will simply not attack us because it will not pay off. Yes. Does that indeed? I believe that if Russia is allowed to win the war in Ukraine, if Russia wins there, it will keep attacking. And this poses a huge threat not only to Poland, this poses a huge threat to the whole world because it can bring huge destabilization. And I see that also U.S. politicians understand it because they are looking at the situation also from the perspective of historical knowledge. History of last more than 100 years in Europe shows that in the First World War, America had to step in to put an end to the world. At when there was the Second World War, America finally stepped in, joined it was attacked by the join the war to put an end to that war. And indeed it put an end to that war. And then America won the Cold War as well, thanks to smart policy and unfortunately without war in Europe. And it won Cold War, America and America knows. I believe they understand it. The American politicians understand it, and both sides of the political stage that today it is better to support financially those who want to have peace and calm so that they can defend their countries, and by the same token, discourage from a potential attack then to be forced to send American soldiers so that they die on European fronts. And I believe that precisely thanks to this wise policy, there will be no big war in Europe. The reality show. But so many are afraid of it today. I think we will hope that Donald Trump takes that view, too. On the bigger one last question on on Ukraine, there is an issue, a big issue, which is if there is going to be a peace talks and you've said you will join the first round of peace talks. Will Ukraine have to give up some territory as part of that? Will Ukraine have to give up? Maybe Crimea, maybe something like that? If we are going to get peace, does that make sense to you to take it out of it? And we should. Well, I have to give you my answer in two parts. First of all, as I have just said, less than one month ago, I talked to President Donald Trump. We had a lengthy conversation. We talked for 2 hours and a half is to my mind. And I asked you whether he would he would come and defend. Yes, absolutely absurd. I I'm absolutely convinced that have protecting historic and historical processes and the part of U.S. strategic interests is understood by Trump perfectly well. He understands both military interests and business interests. This is my first point and the second point. Situation doctrine of the situation, which we should be striving for in terms of Ukraine. We as the community of the free world, is to make sure that Ukraine regains control over all Ukrainian lands which are recognized internationally. In other words, Ukraine should regain control over its internationally recognized borders. Why do we need it so much? For a very simple reason. This will mean something that's pretty much at the primacy of international law has been restored fully. Today, what we're seeing the occupation of Ukrainian lands by Ukraine, by Russia. This is a dramatic, most spectacular since the Second World War, violation of the principles of international law in Europe, in violation of all the treaties, infringement of all the taboos against a free, sovereign, independent state, a brutal frontal attack. This is something that Europe was afraid of since the end of the Second World War. And today Europe is witnessing this. What is most important, important today is to make sure that the aggressor, that a violator does not win this war, but a violator that the aggressor is stopped and that the primacy of international law is restored. And this is what the free world should be fighting for today. That would mean that Ukraine regains all the lands which today are occupied by Russia. And we have to be striving for that. And this is what President Zelensky is trying to get. And I'm convinced that this is the solution which we will be discussing during the upcoming peace conference in Switzerland. I hope that we are going to, as many politicians will take part in it, as many leaders will take part in it from all over the world as possible. Because what is of crucial importance is a two first year on war, which raised this issue at this broad forum, and it is important to stress the primacy of international law for keeping peace not only in Eastern Europe or Central Europe. In other words, in the area where I live and where my country, Poland, is located, but generally across the world. I'm interested by you what you said about Ukraine. Can I ask you one thing about Poland's place in Europe? It occurs to me that yesterday I interviewed President President Macron. France. He would agree with pretty much everything you say about Ukraine and about Poland and about the need to defend things. But he would say the answer is Europe. We made to make Europe bigger, made to make Europe stronger. And that is the most important thing. And this is an area of disagreement between you and the prime minister in Poland. Donald Tusk is a very committed European. You tend to be more of an Atlanticist. Do you think the answer do you think Europe is going to end up being more independent of America? Yeah. So I fully share this opinion and that Europe should be bigger. I'm absolutely an advocate of the open door policy in the European Union, and that is why I'm supporting so resolutely the idea of accepting Ukraine, Moldavia and also Western Balkans into the European Union in the first step. Just bear in mind that in February 2022, right after Russian aggression against Ukraine, I initiated a letter to the leaders of the leaders of Central Europe, to the European Commission, where I requested that Ukraine be granted candidate status to the European Union. Many doubted if it was possible. And after three months in June 2022, that happened. Exactly that happened. Ukraine was granted candidate status to the European Union. I'm very satisfied that it happened. I'm supportive of the process of EU enlargement and I want Europe to be strong. I want Europe to be stronger. I want Europe to be a common market. I want it to be a Europe of equal nations, of free nations, of equal states and free states. This story is done. This, to me is the most important issue, and I do not share the opinion that we need to federalize Europe, that Europe needs to tighten politically. I'm a proponent of tightening European unity in terms of economy. I want economic ties to be deepened. I want that Europe strengthens its economic force. But I'm also the advocate of Euro Atlantic cooperation. I'm a supporter of tightening ties between the EU and the United States. And that is why precisely that priority of Polish presidency in the European Union, we will have this presidency from January until June 2025. Our priority will be, among others. Time to link your Atlantic bonds. Exactly. In other words, at tightening economic cooperation between the European Union and the United States. Because this cooperation is of strategic nature, the economic cooperation, it translates also very simply into the matters of security of Europe. We will look forward to see what Poland does with the European Union when it's in charge of this presidency. President Duda, thank you very much for talking to us today. Thank you.

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In Conversation With President Andrzej Duda

H.E. President Andrzej Duda of the Republic of Poland speaks with Bloomberg's Editor-in-Chief John Micklethwait at the 2024 Qatar Economic Forum, Powered by Bloomberg. (Source: Bloomberg)

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