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This should be a lesson to all teams. Many people underestimate losers' bracket. You beat a team once, and you go, "oh, so we got their numbers." And you think there's no need to adapt for the next set of games. However, the loser would 100% try and make something different.
Pretty sure LCS has had more lower bracket Champions than upper bracket since it's been implemented
2020 Spring - C9 (Upper Bracket)
2020 Summer - TSM (Lower Bracket)
2021 Spring - C9 (Upper Bracket)
2021 Summer - 100T (Lower Bracket)
2022 Spring - EG (Lower Bracket)
2022 Summer - C9 (Upper Bracket)
2023 Spring - C9 (Upper Bracket)
2023 Summer - NRG (Lower Bracket)
2024 Spring - TL (Lower Bracket)
5-4 Lower vs Upper bracket. All 4 Upper Bracket wins were by C9.
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Historically but not recently.
C9s last international events:
1-3 at Worlds 2023
Round 2 Finish at MSI 2023 (0-6 vs non NA Teams)
1-5 at Worlds 2022
2-4 at Worlds 2021, managed to get to quarters anyways, 0-3
3-7 at MSI 2021, 5th place (out of 6)
2-4 at Worlds 2019
They were reliable.. over half a decade ago lmao. This narrative that they're much better than the other NA teams needs to stop already because it hasn't been true in ages, the only non embarrassing result they had in recent times was Worlds 2021
Nah, TL is the most reliable international team. They always go 3-3 in group stage… until the format changed :(
bro is living in 2019 regular season
almost everything since 2019 worlds C9 has looked completely lost moreso than assorted other teams showing signs of life like NRG, Flyquest (pre-"superteams"), GGS, TL. C9 had like, a decent 2021 worlds? but other than that have looked so "do nothing and lose" internationally that it's almost as if Jack had signed a deal with the devil to win LCS like Regi and Steve
Fudge is reliably unreliable at international
TL has been way more consistent, even if it meant not going out of groups. Still going 3-3 in a group with finalists, semifinalists and strong EU team..
Think it is also that winner doesnt really get a benefit for winning since every team can lose once except the ones winning the winners bracket
I can't believe a BO7, one map advantage still doesn't exist in these tournaments tbh. It only adds 1 game maximum and it actually gives a proper advantage to the team that hasn't lost.
Side selection is good but not nearly as crucial enough as having a match lost failsafe.
idk isnt this just a prep issue? Flyquest themselves felt they didnt need to adapt anything. Whereas PSG did adapt, and Flyquest even gets to scout PSG's next match. You could argue PSG can hold back against their lower bracket opponent and not reveal strats but like, their life is on the line lol.
I think getting to view more tape of your opponents and side selection to ensure you are in position to make use of that prep advantage is enough of an advantage. The fact that teams fail to utilize that is nothing more than laziness and skill issue of the team as a whole (including the coaches and stuff)
There are advantages to upper bracket run, you just have to use it.
Having a lower bracket run means having to play a Bo5 vs strong teams. You may have to reveal pocket picks, reveal draft strategies. More data on playstyle and read on meta. The team that win the lower bracket finals have to play the finals in 12 hours, with zero prep time whereas the winners have adequate time to prep
I can't believe how many people still have this dumb opinion.
The double elimination bracket is to get the theoretical best teams to the end of the bracket, eliminating fluke knockouts.
Once you get to the end of the bracket both teams have proven they deserve to be there.
There is no advantage needed for winning upper bracket.
Yeah imo the BO7 is the best alternative, which doesnt give a too big of an advantage but still favors the winner bracket winners.
The only arguement would be the time for the venue, but a total of 6 games wouldnt be that different from a full BO5
Yup this is the main reason why I hate double elim
I'm a proponent of a compromise between that and a bo5.
I like to call it a "bo5 with series extension". You play a regular bo5, but if the lower bracket team reaches three wins first, it's not over, but instead the upper bracket team gets one more chance: If they win every single game up until the point where they're 4-3, they still win the series. If they lose any game (putting the lower bracket team at four wins), they've lost.
Another way to view it: If the upper bracket team is the first to 3 wins, they win. Failing this, if they're the first to 4 wins, they still win. Meanwhile, the lower bracket team only wins if they're the first to 4 wins.
Yet another way to view it: You play a bo5. But if the lower bracket team wins, you say "lmao jk, it was a bo7 all along" and continue as if it were one.
This way, the upper bracket team still needs to actually win more games than the lower bracket team, but they get to drop the ball one more game than the lower bracket team gets to.
I honestly believe, save for a select few teams, that it's almost aways better to get more games in as a lower bracket team than to coast through the upper bracket. there is very little upside to breezing through a tournament whilst your opponent has been through the mud and has momentum on their side
They got an advantage here though?
They had two chances to advance to main stage and PSG only had one?
Im not talking about this one scenario since both teams had already lost one match already, i was talking about the LCS scenario i responded to.
Disregarding MSI playins winner bracket winner usually doesn't have to play 2 Bo5's in two days like the lower bracket team does. Winner's bracket team gets to sit back for a week and prep for both teams without the added pressure of a do-or-die match the day before finals.
Not saying it's enough of a benefit or comparable to Bo7 with one win to start, but it's for sure a benefit.
But you could also say for LCS and LEC its a bonus to be able to play one more game on stage before the final since only the final weekend is in a big arena, which the winner bracket winner wont have the opportuniy to do.
Barely. It is 9 to 8 after this last split.
Edit: It was 50-50 before the last finals. Don't remember the exact record but it's only been one more lower bracket winner.
9 to 8? Impossible, there have barely been 17 lcs finals let alone finals with winner and loser brackets
Yeah, im pretty sure double elim was only implemented in like 2020, which would add up to just 9 splits total.
I misremembered the number. I remembered from when they were talking about it being 50-50 before the spring finals (maybe last 8 splits?). So it's only been one more lower bracket winner.
What I don't understand is that the first series against PSG was really close. How do you walk away from that thinking "oh, so we got their number"?
They don't. It's just being disrespectful. "We didn't take them serious". Bla. They were better. By a lot. They destroyed you guys.
This actually came up in the NBA playoffs this year, an analyst (Richard Jefferson) said "losing is an advantage when it comes to adjustments". He was then misquoted and flamed for saying losing is an advantage, but like his point is super obvious. When you lose, you should know exactly what you need to work on. The reverse is harder to analyze.
And that's exactly what happened to them at the LCS playoffs & Final against TL
I think it's funny that these guys are paid six/seven figures to play a fucking video game and they just go and say "yeah, we didn't do any planning to play against them". If this industry was any serious these guys would really be flipping burgers by now
Just wait until you hear the opinions of some other pro athletes, musicians, and power of power lmao. Delusion is everywhere.
I don't think that's accurate.
You really are reaching by assuming they didn't do ANY prep.
He just was saying they underestimated them. It's a retrospective..
Brother this is a team full of veterans. I haven't watched NA LCS in years and yet their headlines are still the exact same as they were then. LCS is just paycheck stealers. And now the players arent even entertaining anymore to make up for it.
This is a weird thing to say, considering the last split was actually entertaining all around, and you haven't watched LCS in a long time?
its all about drive
koreans and chinese actually have to prove something to others, often coming from low to middle class families they are facing constant pressure from existing and upstart talents. their value is measured by their success and if they stop improving they do not only face the threat of falling into irrelevancy, but also the social pressure from fans
in the west? oh boohoo you criticised my gameplay? well im just gonna clear my tears with those dollar bills i earned by being painfully mediocre. also you cant bench me/ kick cuz im too valuable lololol (and lcs/lec contracts are a fucking joke)
this is just the difference. full stop there are just way more players and therefore good players in the east. You can call them paycheck stealers but i disagree, there simply aren't better players available in the region.
We literally had like 3-4 interviews within this year from amateur players talking about getting gatekept by imports and vets. There are players, just teams are allergic to ever taking chances with them.
Some of them were like 1st place in amateur tournaments too. I mean remember 5fire? Nobody picked him up like... Ever lol, when he was consistently winning lower tier tournaments.
It's an org problem first, then it's the vets, then it's various regional issues, then it's the playerbase imo. Not even that long ago, a nearly pure NA NRG was the best team we've sent to worlds in years.
Need to start getting new orgs, cheaper slots, and hopefully they are run by fans who are passionate
league is just too unpopular in NA anyways because of how they grew the game out in the east and decided to let it rot in the west
Exactly. If you go to parc in Portugal during Summer (between seasons), you'll find kids in small groups or sometimes even a coach from their club (usually for goalies) with a ball and some training cones. That's why so much football talent appears from us
With this being said, NA still has a lot of infrastructure problems when developing players that definitely deter native players from wanting to grind to get pro
There is a reason NA is considered a retirement home, they don't think they stand a chance internationally so what's the point of even trying
I don’t get how it’s a lesson that hasn’t already been learned tho. It’s not like flyquest was filled with rookies who never played in a tournament before.
It's like reverse sweeps with extra steps.
Sorry but these "disrespected" responses after getting destroyed are just coming from bad losers who can't admit that the other team is better. It's distasteful but NA people are used to that.
As a Lakers fan... I know full well the pain watching how screwed your team is when they are unable to make adjustments.
Their entire coaching staff is gone so there's that. Now Pelinka needs to go too.
I mean, major region teams SHOULD have minor region teams number 98/100 times.The problem is NA is trash.
Jensen and the rest of TL beat IG the same way. You show up to an elimination match unprepared, and you'll pay for it dearly, regardless of whether you've beat them before.
Expected, yet it was also close the first time. It wasn’t a clean 2-0, so they had plenty of stuff to take away. PSG 2-0 against FLY was a lot cleaner than the FLY 2-1.
r/lol and everybody who watched that series knows what's wrong with Fly
We're just too pissed at Bwipo and Inspired to point it out
I hate the way they walk, the way that they talk, the way that they sneak diss Minor regions
Being 3/5 EU vets you'd think they'd know how to deliver EUphoria, but I guess they need to drop and do more push ups because their discipline is lacking.
Bro really referencing Kendrick slaughtering drake in rap beef in my toxic MOBA sun lmao
I mean NBA pastas make it here all the time, it's a logical leap.
2* jensen is an eu talent but not an eu vet ;p
Do we need to collect 3 2* jensens so he 3* into a eu vet?
I am sorry to say, but the best FLY botlane did that match, was not running it. It’s not like they played well either.
Jensen looked somewhat human, compared to the others.
On a roster like FLY's with two rookies in the botlane, the onus is on the experienced to play better.
Yeah. Blaming bot when Inspired was a ward all series is crazy
busio is not a rookie. I dont think people should just get a pass simply for being a rookie, you still have to perform. massu can get a pass since its his very first split and he was not set up to even play the game in these stomps. But Busio has been playing for 3 splits and while i can definitely excuse nerves and stuff for first international, he has a lot of gameplay flaws that are exposed even in NA so its clear to me hes just not that good (1st all pro is moreso NA supp being a horrible dumpster fire)
Fly keeps putting Busio on teamfight focused champs, but they are never in position to teamfight. Busio had some good plays tbh
Jensen was just scraping by. That’s how he’s always been.
I mean he actively got screwed over by his top/jg in game 2. That double kill they gifted Maple makes it pretty hard to put any blame on Jensen. I thought he actually did a decent job of treading water while having to face an Asol that got fed early by no fault of his own.
Busio was completely out of his depth in every series they played, but at least we can say he’s raw I guess.
Massu though is even more raw and at least showed some good mechanics.
Bro I swear Busio has handsome white guy syndrome. He’s a mediocre player that got overhyped bc he’s good-looking and can talk well. He looked mediocre at-best on 100T then fell upwards into FLY. I still think he has the potential to become good, but he definitely shouldn’t be on a title contender yet.
everybody watching knows but somehow the players playing the game dont see how sloppy that first series was. i dont know if its hubris or if they dont have a coach to tell them what is wrong. just hard to believe
😂love the Kendrick Reference
I honestly think PSG would win LCS and could qualify for worlds in LEC.
Please give us PSG instead of KC in the LEC!
PSG is French after all. Surely there has to be a way to get them in.
That might be the angle! French people love their teams.
Probably. It seems pretty disrespectful for everyone to pretend like PSG is some shitter team for a minor region. The team is just FW, the team that made worlds like every single year and got out of groups a few times.
Psg has never actually gotten out of groups though. And generally they lose to major region teams.
Yes they are good. Easily the best minor region team. Which pretty much everyone recognizes. But that's really all they are until they prove otherwise.
PSG is pretty decent during MSI which is why I don't get the sudden shock from NA teams that they could be decent.
They 2-0d NA just 2 years ago in MSI and made 3rd overall even over MAD. Yeah they've been shit recently but there's historical basis that they could turn up in a match or two.
PSG is the best wildcard team. All the analysts said it before playins started
PSG couldn’t get through the EU 4th seed last worlds. Considering that top 3 is now the bar to get to worlds from LEC I’m not too sure about that, I think FLY is just way worse than GG was this time last year so it’s made it look like PSG are massively improved.
don't worry they'll probably play another western team, we'll see then.
LCS has always been only a 1 "good" team region, and LEC has always been a 2 "good" team region. PSG could 100% qualify for Worlds in both.
Hey guys, loser interviews are always extremely difficult and I immensely appreciate Jensen's efforts for making time and sharing his thoughts on many subjects:
The reason behind FlyQuest's loss; how the loss impacted different members of the team differently; Jensen's personal goals as a professional player, and more
Of course he had time. All he had on his schedule today was packing.
Hahahahahahahaha that was brutal
that and laughing all the way to the bank
Whats really alarming is how unstable FLY looks as soon as something goes wrong. You would think the veteran presence would keep the team on track based on their years of experience but instead it looks like they try to force every fight possible but without the mechanics or synergies of Asian teams. You are already at a disadvantage because your botlane is both rookies who predictably struggled.
Inspired, Bwipo, and Jensen... not exactly known for strong mentals
I'd argue Jensen has really strong mental to keep up in games where they're struggling, but you know as soon as the game turns south Bwipo and Inspired are gonna be shitting and whining about how dog their team is mid-game.