South Korea and fly rod manufacturing

jkim · Jan 11, 2022

That TFO factory seems it was built right after the Korean war.
I know a person who builds fishing rods in S. Korea - fly rods for OEM buyers and regular rods for Korea/Japan markets.
We went to same university, studying electrical engineering.
His factory is much bigger and cleaner, and yes modernized.
It's no secret that you need quality prepregs made of quality carbon fiber in order to make top quality graphite fishing rods.
Then you add your own fabrication technologies/skills/experiences to it to produce top quality fishing rods.
Korea has some reputable companies that produce quality carbon products - SK Chemical, Hankuk Carbon, Hyosung. These guys are big public companies and the very foundation of Korea's rod making industry. Those small rod makers have no control over the supply chain in other words you can't ask them not to sell the same prepregs to your competitors or not to export to China. You just buy according to the price list - the better the more expensive. And you pay extra if you want some additives like boron and other ingredients.
His regular rod (spinning and bait casting) factory is open to youtubers and some fishing clubs, and his fly reel factory is like open to general public because there's nothing business secrets involved. All reel makers in Korea buy same aluminum and same drag components and same machines from the same identical companies in Korea. But his fly rod factory is absolutely off limit... it's tightly guarded.
Nonetheless his rod manufacturing business has been very successful. It was already 10 years ago he was so happy to start supplying rods and blanks to Orvis and Hardy. I'm pretty sure that he has gotten more OEM buyers by now.

sweetandsalt · Jan 11, 2022

jajohn said:
Just think how great they would be if they were designed by South Koreans!

I presume you are being facetious. Fabricating to very high standards and experience with advanced composites is very important but the heart of a fly rod is its taper design. Really, there are only a handful of designers with this special skill and each of them is an expert caster with deep insight into the dynamics that make a rod a remarkable casting/fishing instrument. Hence the harmonious relationship between designer and technical facility wherever it is located.

jkim · Jan 11, 2022

I'm no expert in fishing rod manufacturing but this "taper design" applies to both (high end) regular rods and fly rods. If I could I would definitely want to ask my friend how much his OEM buyers get involved in actual manufacturing process, except for designs and specs of the fly rods they expect him to product. I'm curious.

jajohn · Jan 11, 2022

So only westerners are capable of quality design?

jkim · Jan 11, 2022

There is a huge difference between "quality design" and "OEM design". I do not think Tiger Woods can make very best golf clubs just because he is (or was) very best golfer. Although he can influence what he wants in a golf club and ask the manufacturer for the specs (OEM), he can't really do anything when it comes to actually "designing the club on a drafting board" then fabricating/machining/finishing the club. Often times the club manufacturers may have better design ideas and just want to get inputs from golfers. In fact there are similarities between graphite golf shafts and graphite fishing rods.

sweetandsalt · Jan 11, 2022

jajohn said:
So only westerners are capable of quality design?

What is up, jajohn, is this tread bugging you, explain. How many top designers can you name? Who's work do you prefer to fish with?

kim, please write your friend (JS, correct) and ask. The makers I know of that have worked with his shop have all been very specific about taper design and material application though, no doubt, there is co-consultation and partnering involved. And he himself knows a lot about rods and I'm confident that the conventional rods he builds for many markets are just fine. Really, we are discussing here the special opportunity for a designer from abroad to have him execute quality fabrication for them.

jajohn · Jan 11, 2022

I just asked a simple question. It will be a cold day before I explain anything to you.

jkim · Jan 11, 2022

sweetandsalt, as far as I know his fly rod fabrication business was introduced by an European (Swedish or English... not sure) who had been in fly rod fabrication when JS had no ideas about fly rods. Obviously the European was involved in the entire fabrication process including the step "taper design" that determines the nature of the fly rod. You made a good point that his OEM buyers (who know about graphite rod fabrication) still would get involved in the production from choosing the raw materials/components to the final finish in order for the factory to make rods that meet their requirements. I'm sure taper design is what they are concerned mostly. I will definitely ask him when I get a chance though.

sweetandsalt · Jan 11, 2022

jajohn said:
I just asked a simple question. It will be a cold day before I explain anything to you.

It is a cold day.

I believe Tiemco in Japan has their rods built in S. Korea but I have no inkling as to their design process or designer and their rods are not marketed here. Many brands do not have a designer they pick and choose what they want for a menu or, in sone cases, reverse engineer from a rod they like, creative property theft.

That I know of Europe has two designers whose products are known here, one of which has his rods built in Korea. In the United States, the designers at Taylor, Douglas, Echo, Rise and TFO have their work executed in Korea, Orvis has some done in China as does Redington, I think both China and Korea. Loomis, Sage, Scott, Winston, T&T build rods at their own shops. Epic in NZ uses Korean fabrication too. I'm sure I'm leaving a bunch out. Among these makers I count 10 taper designers.

South Fly Fishing · Jan 11, 2022

sweetandsalt said:
I had a dialog with an expert caster and rod evaluator yesterday. He did a comparison of some new rods, Scott Centric and Hardy U NSX in 9'/#6. He was so impressed by the Centric that he thought he was going to have to reevaluate his opinion of Scott's and get one but then, up next, was the new Hardy. This British designed and S. Korean built rod proved even more surprisingly superior in his hands at least equaling his benchmark, Loomis Asquith, a Japanese-American joint product. This mirrors my last summer mini comparo of a bunch of high-end big river 4-weights where I decided the new Hardy 9'/#4 bested all but equal too to the Loomis NRX+ (made in Washington State).

It would seem, despite Hardy's ownership by giant Pure, the largest fishing tackle brand holder in the world making the majority of their gear in China, that they have facilitated the resources for Hardy to produce the finest fly rods in their illustrious history, made in S. Korea.

Very interesting to read, S&S. I'm starting to feel that we're coming into a new age of quality and choice. I'd love to hear your colleagues evaluation of the new Hardy U X when he gets to it. We live in exciting times.

PaAdk · Jan 11, 2022

sweetandsalt said:
Really, we are discussing here the special opportunity for a designer from abroad to have him execute quality fabrication for them.

This seems to be a perfect scenario for someone like Taylor.

For TFO and Echo it is interesting to compare as, in general, TFO appear to be more legendary angler driven rod designs and Echo more legendary designer driven rod designs. Even when Echo works with a famous angler, Tim Rajeff’s name gets equal billing. However, both seem to have a price point in mind that must limit their design choices. It makes it interesting to compare what two companies can do at the $150, $250, and $350 price points given they are essentially using a similar SK based model to build their rods.

jkim · Jan 11, 2022

I thought Tiemco was a domestic (SK) rod brand... thanks for the info, sweetandsalt.
Are you by any chance with one of those brands you mentioned above? As part of ownership, management, or marketing, etc.. I'm wondering because you know so much about fly rod production let alone taper fabrication.

bonefish41 · Jan 11, 2022

Individual, subjective opinions about flyrod performance are just that...and IMO essentially distinction with out meaningful objective discrimination save weight, flex curve and swing weight if related to actual weight. The best example assuming candid opinions/rankings, not driven by be good to all or at least all of those in the top ten. Over the past 10 years in Anderson's shoot outs the subjective, performance, numerical scores in his top 10 are separated by less than 6% and those in top 5 less than 3% which IMO is a subjective opinion without significance. It's just a flyrod...price point and marketing driven. One can observe mfg origin and price point marketing/sales with reasonable objectivity with Shimano's bass conventional reels. 10 years ago a given high end reel made in Japan sells for $399. retail but last year same Model same specs same look sells for $250...not so fast,Ray ... it's made in Thailand, Malaysia, or Viet Nam ...youre not getting a Japanese reel for 250 but at least Shimano cuts the retail price to reflect presumably lower mfg costs.; but I did not bite I bought a used, machined Shimano 200 Calcutta GT TE made in Japan and tuned it up... it's so fast that I cannot cast it without it turning, pun intended, into a mini Foucault pendulum

South Fly Fishing · Jan 11, 2022

jkim said:
I thought Tiemco was a domestic (SK) rod brand... thanks for the info, sweetandsalt.
Are you by any chance with one of those brands you mentioned above? As part of ownership, management, or marketing, etc.. I'm wondering because you know so much about fly rod production let alone taper fabrication.

Tiemco/TMC is HQ'd in Tokyo, Japan but JS Corp make a lot of their rods.

rsagebrush · Jan 12, 2022

I believe there are quite a few rod designers that are Japanese and they do produce great rods, I know I have several.

sweetandsalt · Jan 12, 2022

rsagebrush said:
I believe there are quite a few rod designers that are Japanese and they do produce great rods, I know I have several.

Of course, there are numerous boutique cane and glass rod designer-makers that build lovely rods...but I am referring to the graphite, advanced material fabrication conundrum that confronts makers without their own shop facilities. I am aware of the passion for fly fishing that flourishes in Japan.

jkim, I am not affiliated with any maker of any form of fishing tackle. However, I have been around this sport for a long time and have met and become acquainted with many of the industry personnel. I'm simply a fly rod aficionado with a deep curiosity as to what makes them wonderful both technically, historically and creatively.

Tiemco is the inventor of the fly fisher's "snip" with the recessed pin so often imitated by others.

b41, I do not claim my "opinions" about rod's designs, materials or build are actually "objective". But I try my best to explain the context in which the particular rod has virtues, be it for a type of dry fly habitat or the bonefish flat and why. I think most of us agree that the YA Shootout rating system and test methodologies are...let's say, unique to Mr. Andersons preferences. In differing ways though this is endemic in reviews posted by individuals or shops who also sell fly rods.

It is my intent as an inveterate experimenter to expose us to rods I have tried that I think are of significant interest or are somehow flawed; in the context of the type of fishing I pursue. If one wants opinions about long indicator type rods or petite blue line specials, I am not much of a resource.

rsagebrush · Jan 12, 2022

Also there are several other US rodmaker's some of them rolling their own, along with numerous builders working in bamboo, to sell their product they have to design a good rod. Graphene is simply another new and improved thingy, like Sintrix (I couldn't get rid of mine fast enough), that's been going on for a lot of years with everything and technically they may be correct, it doesn't particularly make better rods though, or people better fishermen, the game parameters haven't changed, perhaps it is simply overkill. But I understand, they are trying to increase market share or at least offload the stuff before the new, new 'improved' stuff comes on line. I guess the So. Koreans have acquired the secret sauce currently, and we know this because all the 'premier' rod designer's use them, uh huh. Furthermore I'm quite sure a So. Korean could design a very decent fly rod at this point, after all they have been producing rods for numerous companies for quite a few years now.

I wasn't aware that Shimano was a boutique rod company, I thought they owned Loomis. I believe they produce the Asquith blanks in Japan too.

bonefish41 · Jan 12, 2022

S&S I'll give you the subjective "esoterics" of dry flies and wet flies for which I am unschooled, without meaningful experience...however, whether wading a bonefish flat where sight casts are usually 60 feet and under or skiff casts to sighted fish 75 and under...very little esoterics with any salt 7-9 wt made in the last 10 years just experiment with various lines given the conditions...the conundrum with the salt flat is those of us who don't live in the Keys, Bahamas, Hawaii etc... fish the bonefish flat 3 or 4 times a year...it's not an equipment problem it's limited salt, sight, wind experience problem...you can walk out your door and wade a stream...hit the upper Delaware...I can drive 4-6 hours and find Steel...my only Delaware experience was with a cane pole on a marsh on the Philly Navy Yard property when I was 4 and Lt father was stationed there long time ago

BTW It's Bass fishing and conventional gear that drives the Japanese market..."JDM" tackle are oz for oz are some of the most expensive and elegant tackle...
In reservoir northeast of Kyoto.
Kurita, 32, of Aichi, Japan, was fishing Biwa that July day using a Deps Sidewinder rod and a Shimano Antares DC7LV reel loaded with 25-pound Toray line when he pitched his bait, a live bluegill, next to a bridge piling.
It was Kurita’s first cast to the piling where he had seen a big bass swimming. He only twitched the bait a couple of times before he got bit. After a short, three minute fight he had the fish in the boat.
Kurita was quoted as saying “I knew it was big, but I didn’t know it was that big.”
But big it was. Using certified scales, his fish weighed in at 10.12 kg or 22 pounds, 4 ounces. When measured, the fish had a fork length of 27.2 inches and a girth of 26.7 inches."

sweetandsalt · Jan 12, 2022

rsagebrush said:
Also there are several other US rodmaker's some of them rolling their own, along with numerous builders working in bamboo, to sell their product they have to design a good rod. Graphene is simply another new and improved thingy, like Sintrix (I couldn't get rid of mine fast enough), that's been going on for a lot of years with everything and technically they may be correct, it doesn't particularly make better rods though, or people better fishermen, the game parameters haven't changed, perhaps it is simply overkill. But I understand, they are trying to increase market share or at least offload the stuff before the new, new 'improved' stuff comes on line. I guess the So. Koreans have acquired the secret sauce currently, and we know this because all the 'premier' rod designer's use them, uh huh. Furthermore I'm quite sure a So. Korean could design a very decent fly rod at this point, after all they have been producing rods for numerous companies for quite a few years now.

I wasn't aware that Shimano was a boutique rod company, I thought they owned Loomis. I believe they produce the Asquith blanks in Japan too.

If I suggested giant Shimano was a boutique maker, I misspoke for sure nor did I intend to suggest small hand-made makers were limited to any particular country, I like Mike McFarland's work for example, and he rolls both glass and carbon at home.

The taper makes the rod not the materials per se. Perhaps I'm appearing naive when I say I believe rod designers are striving to make the finest performing rods possible for fisherman first, not for market share, certainly not to make way for next year's pixie dust. Nor am I suggesting a "better" rod makes one a more skilled angler. I would say an experienced fly fisher might, though, find a finer performing rod might enhance the quality of his already wonderful experience astream. I know I enjoy lighter, more communicative rods with superior reflexes.

But, back to the thread topic, "if" a designer like Mathew Taylor, Fred Contaoi or Carl McNeil finds graphene infused resin improves the feel and characteristics of their already great designs, it is true that a particular rod shop engineer in S. Korea has developed special expertise in working with this material. I won't say their rods have made me catch more fish, or appreciate the soaring eagle or hunting along the bank mink more but, I sure like the way the cast and present a fly.

sweetandsalt · Jan 13, 2022

bonefish41 said:
S&S I'll give you the subjective "esoterics" of dry flies and wet flies for which I am unschooled, without meaningful experience...however, whether wading a bonefish flat where sight casts are usually 60 feet and under or skiff casts to sighted fish 75 and under...very little esoterics with any salt 7-9 wt made in the last 10 years just experiment with various lines given the conditions...the conundrum with the salt flat is those of us who don't live in the Keys, Bahamas, Hawaii etc... fish the bonefish flat 3 or 4 times a year...it's not an equipment problem it's limited salt, sight, wind experience problem...

In a 'lucky' year I fish the Bahamas once and Florida twice on the flats. Once I fished the Bahamas three separate times but that was and 'exceptional' year. I do fish striped bass flats with the same gear a few times a year though off NY's Long Island. Still, you are correct that it is cost/time prohibitive for a non-local to be truly in the grove on salt flats...though I'm inclined to go native quickly.

You are also correct in my opinion too, that flats rods going back to GLX and TCR (rod speak not gov't acronyms) get the job done and done well as long as our input is up to speed. However, I posit that I would trade my CrossCurrent GLX #9, good as it is, for an NRX+ in a heartbeat, same for my old Sage's for (maybe not my Method) Igniter. And, not to get off this thread's track, S. Korean built Hardy Zane Pro and forthcoming Taylor Truth Z are going to give the flats rods stalwarts, Loomis and Sage, a genuinely competitive alternative that they have never gotten form the other big US rod makers.

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