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One Thing: Will Michael Cohen’s Credibility Swing the Trump Trial?
CNN 5 Things
May 19, 2024

Donald Trump’s ex-attorney and fixer Michael Cohen took the stand this week in the former President’s New York criminal hush money trial. During cross-examination, Trump’s lawyers appeared to strike a blow against Cohen’s credibility. In this episode, we examine how the testimony could swing the trial as we near the end of the prosecution’s case. 

Guest: Kara Scannell, CNN Correspondent

Episode Transcript
David Rind
00:00:00
Early Wednesday morning, President Joe Biden released a short video message aimed directly at his general election opponent.
President Joe Biden
00:00:08
Donald Trump lost two debates to me in 2020. Since then, he hasn't shown up for debate. Now he's acting like he wants to debate me again or make my day, pal. I'll even do it twice. So let's pick the dates. Donald. I hear you're free on Wednesday's.
David Rind
00:00:23
Basically, the Biden team wanted to tear up the old debate schedule and decades of tradition along with it. The campaigns had way more people vote early these days, so they proposed two debates way earlier in the calendar, one in June, even before the conventions and one in September. They also wanted to ditch the live audience and for microphones to be turned off when a candidate's time runs out. So it isn't a shouting match. Well, almost immediately, former President Trump jumped on Hugh Hewitt's radio show and said while he would like to do more than two, he was in.
Hugh Hewitt
00:00:59
Do you accept?
Former President Donald Trump
00:01:01
Oh, absolutely. I've been trying to get you know, he's issuing it. I wonder whether or not he shows up.
David Rind
00:01:06
'This all moved super fast. And before lunchtime, both Biden and Trump had accepted an invitation from CNN for a June 27th debate in Atlanta. In theory, third party candidate Robert F Kennedy Junior could qualify for the stage, but it remains a long shot. So for now, mark your calendars. Trump. Biden June 27th, 9 p.m. eastern on CNN. But remember what Biden said at the end of that original video? I hear you're free on Wednesdays. It was a not so subtle jab at the schedule for Trump's hush money trial in New York. Well, that trial is moving along quickly. And this week, the prosecution's star witness took the stand. My guest this week is CNN's Kara Scannell. She's been inside the courthouse every single day of this trial. And we're going to talk about whether the dramatic cross-examination of Michael Cohen could sink the prosecution's case. From CNN. This is One Thing. I'm David Rind.
David Rind
00:02:18
Is the courtroom as cold as Trump says it is?
Kara Scannell
00:02:22
It isn't. I think it really reflects the temperature outside. So one day this week, it was so warm. People were taking off their blazers because the temperature was just kind of reflecting that. It got pretty warm outside. So okay, it's not as cold. It was cold at one point and he was he.
David Rind
00:02:40
He said yesterday it was an icebox.
Kara Scannell
00:02:42
Yeah, I definitely not for my taste. It was, I had to take off my blazer.
David Rind
00:02:47
Okay. Well, from one windowless room to another, I brought you here into our studio. Because we have kind of reached a pivotal point in this trial. The prosecution is just about to wrap up its case. So for those who haven't been paying attention in the last couple of weeks, can you walk us through the story that they've been telling the jury?
Kara Scannell
00:03:06
So we have just completed four weeks of testimony. The prosecution has called 20 witnesses, and they started off by bringing in the former publisher of the National Enquirer, David Pecker, a long time friend of Donald Trump. And he set up a lot of what the prosecution's case is about these catch and kill deals. He testified about a meeting in August 2015. Then in this meeting, it's Donald Trump, Michael Cohen, David Pecker. They all decide, according to David Pecker, that they are going to catch and kill negative stories about Donald Trump to help his campaign.
David Rind
00:03:39
They basically pay for these stories so that they don't get out is basically the gist, right?
Kara Scannell
00:03:44
David Pecker said they would write negative stories of Trump's rivals, positive stories of Trump, and then get rid of any stories, particularly about women, that could negatively impact his campaign.
Victor Blackwell
00:03:54
And on the political front, a jaw dropping tape that could change the outcome of the presidential election. The video from 2005 reveals that Donald Trump used vulgar language to describe acts that some say amount to sexual assault. It really is a bombshell.
Kara Scannell
00:04:11
The Access Hollywood tape, according to the prosecution, was a pivotal moment in this.
Former President Donald Trump
00:04:15
You know, I'm automatically attracted to beautiful. I just started kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just. I don't even know where and when you're a star. They let you do it.
Kara Scannell
00:04:24
They also brought in Hope Hicks. She talked about learning about the Access Hollywood tape. She took the jury into a conference room in Trump Tower, where she went to Donald Trump, who was in a meeting with several people on his campaign and brought the story to him. And she described how it turned the campaign into a crisis. And she said that Donald Trump was concerned about the Access Hollywood tape and the impact it could have on voters. That's key to the prosecution's case.
Jim Acosta
00:04:51
The accountant on the stand right now inside that Manhattan courthouse, Jeffrey Mcconney, the man who handed Donald Trump weekly cash reports and cut checks for the Trump Organization, is testifying for the prosecution following that money trail.
Kara Scannell
00:05:04
The next phase of this case was the actual, allegedly falsified documents. So the prosecution brought in the current a former Trump Organization executive who through them, they brought in these actual documents, the invoice that Michael Cohen sent to the Trump Organization to be reimbursed pursuant to a retainer agreement. That is what prosecutors say was false. There was never a retainer. They also showed the general ledger entries of the Trump Organization and Trump's trust and his personal accounts that showed that it was a legal expense. They say that that was also false. And then the checks, these are checks that were the majority of them were signed by Donald Trump in the stub. It said it was a retainer. These checks were to Michael Cohen, $35,000 a month, checks that were sent to Cohen, which they allege was part of this whole scheme.
David Rind
00:05:52
Right. And this is the titular hush money of this hush money trial, the money paid to Stormy Daniels, the porn actress who said she had an affair with Donald Trump, which is something Trump has always denied. But she didn't have anything to do with the actual creation of these checks. Right. So why was she on the stand at one point?
Kara Scannell
00:06:11
You know, she was not a necessary witness that the prosecution needed to call. She's not she knows nothing about the documents, how they were filed. But the reason they called her was because in Trump's opening statement, his lawyer said that she never had a sexual encounter with Donald Trump. It never happened. So the prosecution said they needed to call her to establish her story, that they did have this encounter in 2006 and Lake Tahoe, and that was the point of calling her in to testify. She wasn't a critical witness. People make debate whether it was the right thing to do, but that was the point, because.
David Rind
00:06:44
This got really, like, salacious. And the details were a little icky, to say the least. Right?
Kara Scannell
00:06:49
'It was fairly explicit, her testimony. And then on cross-examination, it became more of this debate of how much she hated Trump. Did she want to see him go down? Was she financially motivated, a bit of a distraction from just having heard and seen these documents that are at the heart of the case.
David Rind
00:07:15
So that brings us to Michael Cohen, the guy that's really at the heart of all this stuff. And he gets up on the stand earlier this week. What did he have to say?
Kara Scannell
00:07:24
He is the prosecution's key witness here. He is the only witness that can directly tie Donald Trump to these allegedly falsified business records to the crime in this case. And so Cohen's testimony here is pivotal, and it really depends on his credibility. So when he was on the stand, he testified about a lot of direct conversations that he remembered having with Donald Trump. He said he called him twice the morning before he went to the bank, opened the account for essential consultants and transferred the $130,000. He testified that he sought Donald Trump's approval all along the way, and the prosecution on their direct. They got into Cohen's history with Trump, how much he admired Trump, but then also how things had changed, and then how Michael Cohen ultimately turned on Trump and himself pleaded guilty to campaign finance violations for part of these payments.
David Rind
00:08:17
Right. I think it's important to remember that Cohen was Trump's guy through and through, like the ultimate loyalist. But that really soured in like a major way.
Kara Scannell
00:08:27
Right? I mean, part of the testimony that he gave the prosecution, which is helpful to their case, you know, he talked about some of these direct conversations and among them talking about, again, that Access Hollywood tape. And when that came out, he said he spoke with Donald Trump. Trump told him it would be a disaster for the campaign. And he directed Cohen to stop this from getting out. And Cohen also testified, and this goes to the prosecution's theory that Trump wanted him to stall paying Stormy Daniels, because if he dragged it out long enough that the story was in flux past the campaign, past Election Day, Trump, according to Cohen, said, if I win, it's not relevant. If I lose, who cares? So that also ties the relevancy to the campaign.
David Rind
00:09:10
Trying to show that this was directly related to the election.
Kara Scannell
00:09:15
Right? I mean, he's charged with a felony count of falsifying business records. That means the prosecution needs to prove not only that they're false, but that they were made false in order to commit or conceal another crime. And in this case, the prosecution's theory is that crime is election fraud.
David Rind
00:09:34
'So how did Trump's lawyers question Cohen on cross-examination then?
Kara Scannell
00:09:38
'So their cross-examination was focused a lot on drawing out some of the negativity that Cohen has towards Trump. Lobbing some insults at Cohen has made.
Elie Honig
00:09:48
A remarkable moment just played out in court.
Kara Scannell
00:09:51
It really crescendo in this moment on Thursday, though, when, you know, going back to some of these phone calls that Michael Cohen had with Trump, his lawyers honed in on one in October of 2016, October 24th. And when questioned by prosecutors, Michael Cohen said that he was in contact with Trump's bodyguard, who was a way that he often reached Donald Trump is that he called him he was patched through to Donald Trump and they talked about Stormy Daniels. Cohen said that he spoke with Donald Trump and that he told Trump that the Daniels matter was resolved and it was moving forward.
Elie Honig
00:10:26
What happened just now, though, is the defense lawyer walked Michael Cohen through the text records in the phone records to create a really important timeline.
Kara Scannell
00:10:34
'Todd well, on cross-examination, Trump's lawyer confronted Cohen with some text messages he had with the bodyguard just ten minutes before that phone call where they were discussing some prank calls Cohen had been getting from a 14 year old. And the bodyguard says, call me. Cohen calls him. That call lasts for 96 seconds. A minute, 36. And Trump's lawyer said to Cohen, this was a lie. You can admit it was a lie that you spoke with Donald Trump. No, Cohen said. It wasn't a lie. He said he spoke to both Schiller and Trump.
Elie Honig
00:11:07
The problem is, Michael Cohen said nothing about the 14 year old during his direct testimony, nor did he say so during his grand jury testimony. So prosecutors are going to have to go back and come back from this really important moment.
Kara Scannell
00:11:18
A couple other certainly a blow to Cohen, because Trump's lawyers made it seem like he made up that phone call.
David Rind
00:11:30
So help me understand how big of a deal this particular incident is. Does it get to the heart of, like, the evidence here, or is it just merely a matter of. Here is an extreme example of Cohen being a liar.
Kara Scannell
00:11:43
Given how important Cohen is to the prosecution's case, it is important for the defense to try to undercut his credibility, to raise some doubt, some reasonable doubt in the jurors minds that they can't convict Donald Trump based on the word of Michael Cohen. The prosecutors would say that Michael Cohen's an important witness, but not the only witness, because they will point the jury in the direction of some corroborating testimony. David Pecker has told the jury that they had this catch and kill deal it was to impact the campaign. Keith Davidson, Stormy Daniels lawyer, will say that his understanding was Cohen was buying this to help the campaign. But when you get to the reimbursement scheme, Michael Cohen is the only person that has testified about Donald Trump's sign off of this payment and his knowledge of it. And Cohen testified to this meeting in Trump Tower, where he said that Donald Trump had approved the payments where he would be reimbursed monthly for the next year. And he also testified about a meeting in the Oval Office with Donald Trump, in which Cohen says Trump had told him he would be paid in checks to back that up. There is a calendar entry that shows Cohen had a meeting at the Oval Office, and there's also a photograph that Cohen took that day in the white House briefing room. But no one else can testify about conversations that were said and Trump's direct knowledge.
David Rind
00:13:05
'It's like the prosecution had no choice but to put him on the stand, because he is the only one who can testify to that kind of stuff. But of course, it's a risk, as we've seen in the cross-examination, that he can be dinged for all his past lies and things like that.
Kara Scannell
00:13:18
'Right. And the prosecutors tried to get at that before. One funny thing, you know, where we don't hear from Michael Cohen till week four in this trial, we've heard from a lot of witnesses, 19 others. Several of them gave descriptions of Michael Cohen as a jerk, as an A-hole. Nobody wanted to talk to him as a difficult person.
David Rind
00:13:38
This was the prosecution's case.
Kara Scannell
00:13:39
This was the prosecution's case of warming the jury up to him. They even told the jury in opening statements that some of their witnesses, including Michael Cohen, had a lot of baggage. So the jury got a flavor of that coming in to know that Michael Cohen was not going to be a saint. A lot of cases don't have cooperating witnesses or people who are testifying that are saints. So that's something that prosecutors always have to deal with. It's just a question now of, did Donald Trump's team get enough nicks in Michael Cohen's credibility to have a juror have pours of do you convict a former president and a current frontrunner for the Republican Party, based on the evidence that they've heard and on Michael Cohen's testimony?
David Rind
00:14:22
And so once I do rest their case, what kind of defense is Trump going to put up? Do we know?
Kara Scannell
00:14:28
We don't know. His lawyers have suggested that they could call 1 or 2 witnesses, but they said they're not sure they're going to do that. Now that also the big question, does Donald Trump take the stand and testify in his own defense? His lawyers have said that's not been determined yet. And we have seen Donald Trump in some previous cases, civil cases, not criminal. He has taken the stand. Other times he's chosen not to. So the decision has not yet been made. But the judge said on Thursday afternoon that both sides should be prepared to give their closing arguments on Tuesday. So this is moving forward pretty quickly.
David Rind
00:15:04
Like we could be on verdict watch sooner rather than later. It sounds like.
Kara Scannell
00:15:09
Yes, we could be on verdict watch as soon as early next week and there could be a decision.
David Rind
00:15:15
Well obviously a huge moment as this thing nears its conclusion and you'll be there to see it all.
Kara Scannell
00:15:20
Kara thank you, thank you.
David Rind
00:15:31
One thing is a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Paola Ortiz and me, David Rind. Our senior producer is Faiz Jamil Our supervising producer is Greg Peppers. Matt Dempsey is our production manager. Dan Dzula is our technical director. And Steve Licktieg is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We get support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhart, Jamus Andres, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Elizabeth Hartfield and Katie Hinman. We'll be back next week. I will talk to you then.