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Man, in January the Clippers looked amazing. But it's May now and they're watching SGA & Luka, Spida & Tatum, Brunson & Haliburton, Joker & Ant. Clippers will almost certainly be broken up, so George, Harden & Westbrook are likely to end up on different teams.
How likely do we think it is that they never get a ring?
That one or more of them gets a ring as a key player on a team?
That one or more of them gets a Gary Payton/Mitch Richmond ring as a complimentary player?
I'm starting to think the last scenario is the most likely. but maybe none of them will ever be champions (NCAA or NBA). What do y'all think?
As a productive starter? Westbrook’s window has closed, PG and harden’s are quite narrow if they continue to go for max contracts
As a late career role player/ring chasing bench warmer? Who knows, that just depends on the luck of who they choose to join
This. 5 years ago people would have laughed if someone said Deandre Jordan, javale McGee or Dwight Howard would be champions in the 2020s.
Javale was a champion before the 2020s so…
And a real contributor on those teams, too.
Dwight was definitely a contributor to the lakers in 2020 playoffs
PG probably has the best shot if he finds the right team, ironically he’d be great on this Pacers team.
Harden is just team hopping, and trying to force it, but I can’t pretend that he could be the PG the Suns needs, and could’ve actually been the difference maker for them.
I can’t see a single situation where Westbrook is a big contributor as a starter.
Harden is still a beast, he could be 6th man of the year and run a squad well as an elite guard for 15-20 minutes a game and play as a second or third option for 10-15 minutes on a co in tending team and his weaknesses would be minimized, but I don't see that happening for a few more years and by then he will be washed with zero lateral defensive movement. Would love him to be on a team like OKC in that roll, or get traded to Orlando and give that team an actual playmaker.
Harden as 6th MoTY is what we need to go back to before the world ended in 2012
PG is going to Philly and getting Tobias Harris’ spot.
But you know who’d help and if you don’t overpay it won’t be too bad? Tobias Harris.
There isn’t a single contender that would/could sign him for more than a min
If PG is willing to take the MLE for a shot at a ring then hell yeah. Otherwise there’s now way he comes here.
Harden doesn’t want a championship, Westbrook won’t let you win one and Paul George died after his injury on team USA. Westbrook, Harden , Paul George, LeBron and all star team couldn’t win championship
PG probably has the most left in the tank/largest "The Guy" window left - he got a full year off for his broken leg, that's a lot of minutes that he didn't play. If it was a muscle injury that's one thing, but broken bones heal just fine with that level of medical care, so ultimately it's just less mileage.
If he can get to a team where they compliment him (Sixers even though I hate them) he'd most likely be the primary/secondary perimeter option and still get his touches and 20-25 shots a night for the next 2-4 years (health permitting) without too much issue.
Edit: Because this turned into a cluster fuck, if you have doubts about my claims you can read the sourced material at the end of this thread.
No shot u turned snapping ur leg in half gives u more miles to play but u did it.
Broken bones when set right will have almost no long-term effects; coupled with the PT he got as a pro athlete, and yeah that's less total miles my dude.
Not an opinion, just medical science - having said that, I'm no doctor so I could be wrong but I thought that was basically common knowledge, that broken bones when set properly will not adversely affect you long-term.
You could have done 1 second of research:
The main long term complications of tibial shaft fractures are ankle osteoarthritis and subtalar stiffness, postphlebitic limb, foot and ankle deformities due to acute compartment syndrome, chronic osteomyelitis, and local discomfort related to metal implants.
That’s not “no long term effects.”
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I think there’s more fire than smoke when it comes to PG and the Sixers.
Hardens is closed. We’ve seen enough playoffs of terrible play from him no matter what team he is on they won’t win.
Harden won a couple of games for a team that was effectively without its best player for the second consecutive postseason.
He’s not the Harden of old, and it seems like he really does not want to be based on the situations he keeps choosing — playing with an alpha scorer and another ball handler — but he’s forced into trying to replicate his old scoring production because of an injury to that alpha scorer.
Just look at the Mavs. PJ Washington could not show up the rest of the series and he’s done his job in stealing two games where the best players on his team weren’t at their best. That’s all you should be looking for from your third-best player.
Is PJ their 3rd best player? You can make an argument for others. Mavs deceptively deep.
In this series so far, but yeah they’ve got a bunch of solid guys.
I'm a casual enough fan so I've always been confused about this. Why do players like PG and Harden want max contracts at this stage of their career? Surely the logical thing to do is accept a low contract and go to a team that is challenging to win that ring? Why can't the older guys all do this to get over the hump. Is the money really that much more important to them than winning?
I mean hard for us to imagine but having the opportunity to make $100m or maybe win a ring to pad the legacy is a tough call.
Even with the amount of money they make, a 100m is still 100m, and not like taking a vet contract and joining a good team will definitely net them the ring. Think Nash on the lakers or Malone before him. At the least the money is (for the most part) guaranteed.
Getting a ring definitely isn't guaranteed but surely it's their best chance of getting one. I'd probably take the money too but that's cause I don't care about basketball as much as those guys
Its not a tough call because nobody ever choses significantly less money. There have been times that players make choices over a couple of mil, but I can’t remember star player leaving 10s of millions on the table to win.
Why do players want max contracts? Of course money is that important. That much money allows you to never work again, pay for your family / friends, and live a comfortable lifestyle for the rest of your life. They work incredibly hard so a championship is important, but is it really more important than $100m? I get they should already have enough, but that’s a lot to pass up on. Also the championship isn’t guaranteed things change so quickly.
Because $100,000,000 is a lot of money. Even if someone is willing to trade that for a ring, joining a contender (outside of 2017 and 2018 warriors) gives you a less than 50% chance of getting one as there are so many good teams.
They can always ring chase at the very end when they’re not good enough to command that much money
What if they wanted to increase their legacy like Lebron? Chance to win another championship although he'd be criticised for jumping ship again
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I'm not disagreeing with anyone here. I've said I'd probably take the money too but if I wanted to win a championship I'd probably give up money to do so
But yet Brady and Duncan did EXACTLY that.
You just might take a job where success was measured a bit differently than just dollars (i.e. in a field that you enjoy with people who aren't awful and decent hours or a cool location.)
Do you already have generational type of income and the ability to retire at any point?
If you win the lottery at 100 million, would you still work for your paycheck or would you start to find something that is more pleasurable even though it doesn’t pay more.
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Why do players want max contracts? Of course money is that important. That much money allows you to never work again, pay for your family / friends, and live a comfortable lifestyle for the rest of your life. They work incredibly hard so a championship is important, but is it really more important than $100m? I get they should already have enough, but that’s a lot to pass up on. Also the championship isn’t guaranteed things change so quickly.
I'd take the money too but that's cause I don't care about basketball as much as those guys. I'm fairly sure those guys are comfortable enough as is. Do you think if Jaylen Brown manages to get in the same situation as PG and Harden in 8 years time and continues to be the highest payed player in the league would he take the chance of a championship with a reduced contract or continue taking the max contract offer if he's offered it?
Well Jaylen Beown said he’d have 5 rings by age 28 so he’s a bad example in this sense
PG has signed 4 contracts worth a more than $415 million, James Harden has earned over $300 million, both those figures are without endorsement deals. I feel like a ring is more important at that point.
yes. money is more important than a ring to most players. especially when you remember that a lot of these players came up from abject poverty. if it wasn’t more important we’d have seen 10 all stars take minimum deals and run through the league by now
I think they could win a ring in a role or off the bench, but their days of being that guy are over and I think they are all in denial. They need a Gary Payton on the Heat in 06 type run.
that's generous. If he wants to ride the end of some bench of a championship team, Westbrook might get a ring.
George is still very good, but he'd have to be a second option behind a true superstar to have a shot at it.
If Harden took a significant paycut, he could be a third option or instant offence type bench player and win a ring
Chances are pretty high, although 1 of them might win a ring. Even if they join a team as a role player at the end of their career, there’s no guarantee they join the right team.
Westbrook is close to being done in the NBA. He’s kinda in the Carmelo Anthony with the Thunder territory, so he’s got at most a few more years.
He’s way past Thunder Melo territory. Melo started almost every game that year and wasn’t even that bad relative to the rest of that team. Thunder were +5.8 with him on, that was 80th percentile.
Ironically Westbrook hasn’t been better than league average since that Melo year. He started 11 games this year. The Clippers were worse on offense and defense when he played. He’s only even on a team because he’s friends with George and Harden. Melo provided even decent 6th man value on the lakers
Fine I’ll go with Portland Trail Blazers territory, which kinda means his career will be over soon. I was more saying he’s got 3-4 years max, but yea as a net contributor, I guess you are right that he’s probably closer to Blazers Melo.
Even with the Blazers Melo was better than current Westbrook. Melo in Portland started every game his first year there averaging 15/6/2 with nearly 40% shooting from 3. His second year there he came off the bench and was a 6MOY candidate averaging 13/3/2 with 41% 3 point shooting. Westbrook had a higher peak than Melo but also lower lows given his playstyle.
Okay let's try for Lakers Melo
TBF, it's easier to have a positive impact on a bad team than a good one, so 1-1 stats comparisons aren't 100% accurate.
No chance in hell WB is playing 3-4 years from now in my mind. I’d be surprised if he made it two he legit would’ve been out the league a year or two ago if he hadn’t had such a good career and name recognition
As long as he has superstar friends he will find a roster spot
3-4 years max he'll be 38 or 39 YO. You think he can make it to playing at that age?
WB dropped off much quicker than Melo did because WB never had a reliable 3-point shot to lean on when his athleticism declined. Melo also had size and height and so retained more of his scoring abilities as he aged.
After watching the Mavs/Clips series, I understand that he's become an offensive liability, but I'm surprised to hear that the Clippers are worse on defense with him. He seemed like he still had a ton of athleticism and gave us some problems.
he does but he doesn't use it correctly. instead of using him 6'4 210lb frame to stay in front of his man like he should, he's often gambling the passing lanes and reaching for steals, while not having his MVP type athleticism to allow him to recover as quick as he used too
You know he asked the coach to bench him for the sake of the team right.
...because he sucks. He refused to come off the bench for the lakers and was horrendous.
I can go and ask ty lue to come off the bench too
There were conflicting reports of how exactly that happened. Law Murray, the Athletic beat writer suggested at the time that he was essentially told he'd be going to the bench.
It was then re-iterated at the end of the first round as well.
Westbrook is going to being playing NBA ball for as long as he wants to up to the age of 40. I guarantee that every young team or middle-age team would welcome his leadership. He is still worth a roster spot and can still play serious bench minutes in the right situation
I just want Westbrook to get 1 more triple double for #200
Brody could probably still go back to OKC when he’s 50
Outside of getting charity or a "vet leadership" roster spot, he's about 1 season away from not being a serious nba player.
What team do you support? Because if you’re an unbiased NBA fan, you have to be joking. He can still get serious bench minutes on half the teams in the league. The turnovers are really a bad problem when they happen at the end of the game but this isn’t 2017 or 2015. He’s not expected to be a closer. He’s expected to feast on bench units, play smothering hustle ball defense and being an energizer off the bench. This is literally the perfect role for Westbrook
Strongly disagree. He can't "feast" on bench units anymore. He's below average for a backup guard. He's worse on offense and defense than guys like Jose Alvarado and TJ McConnell.
He's way closer to being out of the league than he is to being a useful, backup guard. He's fortunate he got 2 years guaranteed.
If LAC didn't resign him, he would be either making the minimum or out of the league this year.
Paul George is probably the only one with a chance. He would be an amazing 3rd option on a playoff team and still has moments of being a good 2nd option. His defense is still good as well.
Westbrook is cooked and probably should never be in a playoff rotation again. Both him and Harden would have to get lucky in a ring chaser move.
If Harden wanted to ring chase for the minimum now, I think he could have any team he wants. And add a lot of value to it. Hence, he’d have decent chances at winning a ring.
Even better for PG. He could win without taking a massive paycut. At Philly or OKC.
Westbrook... I don’t know that any team would want him. He’s probably a better #1 guy than your 8th/9th guy, but you’re not a championship team then. He’s probably a better role player than your 12th guy, but your 12th guy is a prospect.
Harden could add a lot of value but I just don’t see him ever taking a bench role. He still is at the point where he can run an offense but he’s just not as lethal anymore to create as many open looks. I think the best spot for him at this point is mentoring a young team and hopefully helping creating another Maxey.
Philly is cooked tho. They lost to Knicks who didn't have Randle. The way they played that series was beyond disgusting, especially Embiid. Somebody has to tell that man to stop flopping in the 4th quarter.
Philly has more than 60millions of cap space with Embiid Maxey and Reed, then the MLE and bi-annual.
You do not get the MLE if you use your cap space.
He’s never really been a consistent second option on this team because Kawhi has missed so much time. Especially in the playoffs.
I find it so weird that they were eager to pay Kawhi and trade for Harden to sign him, but want to lowball the guy who took the Clippers to their only even WCF.
What does "lowball" even mean? All we know is that he hasn't been offered a max. Is that what you mean? Because they didn't offer Kawhi a max either.
If he were to sign with the Pacers for a two year MLE there is a chance his contributions are significant enough to give us a legitimate chance, but I don’t see why he would.
Westbrook is a negative asset for most teams, where even on a good contract, his downside is as much or more than his upside.
Harden has a shot as a third option if on the right contract but I don’t know he will accept a CP3 role and he tends to be ball dominant.
George has a real shot but not if he wants a super max. If so he’ll be an overpaid aging second or third option on a team like Orlando where ultimately that contract will prevent Orlando from achieving its full potential because eventually they’ll have to pay their young core.
I think Harden would be fine being the 3rd option on a good team. But he also (understandably) wants to get paid. On the Nets he was a facilitator for the most part and could have won a ring if not for bad injury and toe luck. Now he's not consistent enough to be a top option on a championship team.
He’s also aging so this isn’t an argument for Harden 2-3 years ago, it’s a forward looking comment.
I’m a huge Harden fan by the way. But for him to win a ring he needs to join a team on the rise and have his role and contract be a fit. It’s a lot of things to line up.
I think he should have stayed in Philly. That might have been his best shot. Maxey and Embiid fit him super well
his best shot was 2018 against GSW then probably last year up 3-2 on Boston, but yet another disappointing end to the season for my sixers. But we prob get destroyed by Denver anyway so oh well
True. I guess my main point was that I imagine Harden would be ok mostly being a facilitator, but that's unlikely to happen. It seems like his window is pretty close to shut now as much as I hate to admit it.
His biggest challenge has been how much the offense needs to go through him for him to be at his best. I agree he’s an amazing facilitator, but if the offense isn’t going through him, he tends to struggle
It's already happening.
Harden took basically the same amount of shots per game(~11.4) that CP3 took when he was in Phoenix.
It's the fewest shots he's taken per year since he left OKC, and that's a trend that's been going on since he left Houston. He's taking fewer and fewer shots every season.
Thus the problem. 3rd options don’t typically make 50M a year.
Harden is a third option rn
Harden just can’t beat dudes off the dribble for more than a few games. I love him but dudes best years are very sadly behind him :/
Until that hammy injury dude was an actual Ironman. Never seen anyone other than Lebron tie up his shoes and walk off ankle sprains that would put out anyone else.
Respect to him. He’s done the best & has faced the wildest luck, but unfortunately he’s a third option on a champ team.
I don’t understand the thought that Harden is more ball dominant than CP3. They seem pretty similar at this point tbh. Both guys have the ball in their hands because they’re orchestrating the offense, but neither one is really doing it to look for their own shot anymore.
Harden is a 6th man for any team that is serious at this point.