MC Fireside Chats – May 1st, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks. Empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Good stuff.[00:01:00] 

Cara Czismadia: Morning afternoon, everyone. Welcome to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. It is May 1st, 2024, which happens to be opening day for a lot of campgrounds up here in Canada. It’s an exciting time. I want to thank you guys for welcoming me back to my old gig. I’m here guest hosting as Brian is away on a well deserved vacation, and of course, The show’s got to go on.

The show must go on. So for those who don’t know me, I’m Cara Csizmadia. I’m president of the Canadian Camping RV Association. Formerly a co host of this show, I spent a couple of years of my life every week here having chats about the industry and getting to meet some incredible folks.

All of the individuals on this call, as well as so many others. So I really cherish the show and have loved to see it continue and go on and watch every week and see how engaged and big the audience has been getting. It’s really lovely to watch. Thank you all for having me back.

I was [00:02:00] mentioning to these guys before we went live here, I actually, all three of you, I had the pleasure of seeing, the last time I saw you all, It was all in the same place last fall at the Glamping Show it’s lovely to catch up. I think we’ll have potentially a couple of others jump in and join us throughout, as we’re live here, but we can get things kicked off and started today.

But first, I will ask you guys to introduce yourselves. I know your audience here probably knows who you all are, but quick blurb from each of you would be great. Scott, we’ll start with you.

Scott Bahr: Sure. I guess I can start. Scott Barr from Caring Consulting Group, do market research within the industry. Been doing it for 20 years and over 20 now, but we’ll just keep it around 20. Yeah, love doing the research, love working with data and that’s been my focus for quite some time and I love doing it.

Cara Czismadia: Right on. And Jeff. 

Jeff Hoffman: Hi, I’m Jeff Huffman from Camp Strategy. I’m one of the founding members. [00:03:00] And we try to help campgrounds succeed by coaching through financials and operations. Amazing. 

Cara Czismadia: And Christine. 

Christine Taylor: I’m Christine Taylor. I’m from the Towne Law Firm. I grew up in the camping industry. I actually own a campground with my mother.

And I call myself the doom and gloom of the business frog because I get to tell you every negative thing that’s happening in our space and hopefully how to better address it. 

Cara Czismadia: Same. I have to say that’s not true. As a former campground owner, I really cherished my relationship with my lawyer.

I would say, as much as it’s often daunting things to, to deal with and chat out very valuable and necessary component of the industry. And I have to say you guys are lucky down there. We really don’t have the same level of access to specialists like Christine up here, we’ve [00:04:00] got some great legal contacts and things like that, but to have that level of understanding and comprehension about the industry and how it functions is really great.

Great tool for operators that 

Christine Taylor: So glad okay, 

Cara Czismadia: so I think we can just dive in probably we were tossing around some ideas I mentioned it’s the start of season up here in Canada and That is being challenged a little by the weather. I’m actually in the midst of a snowfall warning of 30 to 50 centimeters.

So gosh, what would that be? 12 to 14 inches of snow, probably, over the next 24 hours. So in my part of the country, opening day is proving to be a little bit cumbersome, but we certainly have campgrounds all over the country geared up and Doing that celebratory stuff [00:05:00] this weekend as they get open and ready to go.

I’m interested to hear from you guys about, forecasts or, Scott, if you have any insights about data or trends or what the booking situation is looking like for this upcoming season, now that we’re on the precipice of it starting I’d love to hear from you. 

Scott Bahr: Sure. In some of our, the work we’ve done in the last couple of months, There’s a low percentage of guests who are booking their trip a little bit later, or last minute.

What, one of the things we’re finding out is that with a lot of the disruptions that happened last year weather I know I, I probably say this every week, but last year, June was essentially a washout in the Northeast. We, a lot of people made reservations. And up to that point had been grown advance to make sure that they got their spot right.

But then so they had reservations and especially the tent people, our viewers, not quite as much, but like a lot [00:06:00] of the tenters, a lot of the places that see a lot of people a lot of tent campers. Okay. They’re seeing a little bit of a change where people are gonna wait a little bit longer. The overcrowding has diminished.

That people can get spots now. They’re waiting and I know that there’s some people are concerned that the early reservations aren’t there. I’m not a campground owner so it’s easy for me to say, but I feel like if we’re patient, I think they’ll come back. I do believe that as long as we, we get a break with our weather and we don’t get for the snow in camping season.

But yeah the other thing that, that dovetails with that is the desire for More spontaneous travel that people, there’s especially RVers have a real strong desire to, to have at least part of their trip be spontaneous. It may not be every stop, but they want to incorporate some spontaneous stops along the way.

Just have a destination in mind, but then stay where [00:07:00] it’s convenient and where they want to on any given night. So that’s what we’re tracking at this point. in the season so far. 

Cara Czismadia: Awesome. Jeff, I’m curious about your insights. I know you were saying a couple of things earlier before we went live.

Jeff Hoffman: Yes somewhat a lot of my clients are concerned about the same thing Scott just talked about.

And I keep trying to reassure them that the booking window seems to have narrowed closer to dates of arrival. Everybody got spoiled by Being booked out two months in advance and it was great, but now we’re getting back to what I would perceive as normal, which is generally it was a two to three week booking window in the past leading up to COVID.

So I think we’re getting back to that. Unless you’re a really great destination park. Maybe your booking window is further [00:08:00] out. Right now, I’m not too worried about it. I don’t see a lot of price resistance. Because we’ve bumped the prices. They’ve had a couple years to adjust to the prices. And now, as long as you keep the, any bumps within reason, I don’t think you’ll have a problem getting, increases, but I don’t think the days of the 40 percent jump are ahead of us.

I think they’re behind us. 

Cara Czismadia: That was going to be my next question is how we think the consumer is. tolerating or what their expectations are around things like dynamic pricing and that hotel style, we’re seeing weekends being charged at, a much higher rate than certain other times of the year and all those things up here in a way that, for the last couple of years that we didn’t prior to then is the consumer, in your opinion, tolerating that?

I’m hearing yes. 

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, [00:09:00] I, and I believe that. As we get more campgrounds that go to that style, it’s going to become more and more acceptable. I’m still working with a lot of owners that still have one price for the whole season, and I try to convince them that they’re just leaving money on the table. So it’s difficult with some of them, but It’s becoming the norm through the industry, so they might as well catch up.

Cara Czismadia: Do we have accurate measurable data we can share with them about how much money we’re talking in a way that’s absorbable? 

Jeff Hoffman: I would defer that one to either Scott or even Sandy. 

Cara Czismadia: That was my transition. Hi, Sandy. How are you? 

Sandy Ellingson: I am good. I feel a little silly today. Evidently [00:10:00] I clicked the wrong link and I was sitting there just waiting on things to start.

And finally my friend who’s watching messaged me and said, why aren’t you on the podcast today? And I’m like, I am, I’m sitting here. I apologize for being late. Yes, I, it is very difficult for the privately owned, what I like to refer as mom and pop. To think about doing dynamic pricing, but is also on the flip side concerning to them, they feel like they need to be able to compete with what some newer parks are offering and they will.

So if there’s this balance and what I tell them is, if the average park is 100 sites, If you just increase your rate by 1 per site, the potential is 3, 000 a month, especially during your peak time. That’s a significant increase with a very minimal, on your income, with a very minimal increase on the camper side.

[00:11:00] And it’s funny, for as many parks as I’ve converted, which I would say I’m probably going on 30 now, from being standard pricing, To dynamic pricing. They always start out by saying, Oh, our customer’s going to be so mad. They’re not going to like us. They’re not going to come back. And I give them like two or three things they can say, and they’ve never had to use them ever.

They’re just, first of all, people got used to the prices going up during COVID. And so these are like, my conversions were mostly pre COVID, didn’t need to convert during COVID and since COVID. And it’s it, they really, they build up a fear that’s just not there. 

And then, and I do agree with Jeff on the rates.

I know the rates have come up, but some of the stuff that, research that we’ve looked at and things I’ve been hearing from my parks and consumers is that it’s not about the rate, the two things right now. It’s about our deposit policies and our [00:12:00] cancellation policies. 

Just by shifting those a little bit, we can alleviate some of that anxiety because they’re realizing that, you know what, I can make a reservation and still get a percentage of my money back, or I can make a reservation and cancel and not lose everything just because I made the reservation and thought I was gonna be there and things changed.

Cara Czismadia: So it’s interesting. I just saw an article talking about how the majority of short-term campers. Cancel or no show at least a handful of times a year or a portion of their bookings per year and I’m curious on insights around, how valuable I, I understand it’s the kind of necessity, obviously, behind having those policies in place, but how valuable is it to be adaptable or make those policies more malleable?

To address this consumer dynamic where booking windows are shortening, folks are concerned about the weather, or wildfire season, or whatever, and hesitant to make a booking. Do you, [00:13:00] do, does a creative, malleable cancellation policy motivate an earlier booking because they feel a bit more flexibility?

Sandy Ellingson: It absolutely does and there are some really innovative things that we’re seeing happening. I’ve got one owner, she owns 13 parks and she started with a membership. So if you’re a member of her park, similar to what KOA did but not, but a little different because she took a different twist.

So she basically said if you’re a member, Then you have a different cancellation policy and a different refund policy. And she comes, her background was banking before she got into RVs. And so what she did was she calculated the percentage of people that were going to cancel and figured out, all right, on average, like when you’re doing an amortization schedule how much would you need to make to be able to cover all that?

Because there is some concern on Parkside. They do need to make sure that they’re not [00:14:00] holding that spot for somebody Who’s ultimately not going to show up and want their money back. That’s their asset. They held it for you. So I totally can stand behind them on their policies, but she’s finding that she is doing really well with that.

And because she has multiple parks where people can go different places not only does she say, look, you can You get a better cancellation policy and you get a better refund policy, you can actually transfer your your reservation to another location if the location, the weather is not great where you want to go.

I just feel like there’s a lot of things that can be done to make that more, palliative for the guests. 

Cara Czismadia: Sure. Yeah, no I agree. We are seeing some unique stuff happening up here as well that, I think is going to help address that kind of consumer hesitancy to book farther in advance.

I love to see that innovation from campground owners, no question. 

Sandy Ellingson: It was funny early on, like we, we had the growth, we had [00:15:00] higher occupancy pre COVID, but then during COVID, it just skyrocketed and everybody in my family is a camper. When we go, we look like a rally, right?

When we go camping together. Yeah, and it was hilarious because all of the younger people in my family that were camping, no joke, they would make reservations at three different campgrounds for the exact same week because to them, back then, the cancellation policy was 25 bucks. Yeah, and so they would say, we don’t know where we want to go, so they’d book all three and sacrifice the 50 to get to where they wanted to go.

And so I think, Having that too low a cancellation policy encouraged some of the activity we were seeing. Sure. And now we’re just kinda writing that. So we can’t be too flexible, but we need to be more flexible than we are right now. , because those policies that we had during Covid were, are they changed during covid?

We put into place for exact exactly. That kind of activity.

Jeff Hoffman: Sandy and [00:16:00] Scott. I just wonder how you feel about the option to have cancellation insurance purchased with your reservation. I’ve been recommending that at some where they’re more of a high volume and longer stay. And a couple of them, we’ve written, it’s not through an insurance company, we just wrote the policies.

Exactly. The other is, there is an insurance company out there that, for a percentage, will write the insurance for cancellations. I didn’t know how you guys felt about the future of that, to address the cancellation issue. 

Sandy Ellingson: I think it’s brilliant, and I think it’s unique to each park. I think they need to look at what their transitory traffic is, because it doesn’t work for every park.

But I’ve got one park that’s in the panhandle of Florida, and He underwrites all of this himself. [00:17:00] He has a cancellation policy, which it’s an insurance policy that they can buy. He’s got a weather insurance policy. And then he also has, he self finances packages. So he happens to be a larger part.

And so to help younger people, he takes the whole idea of the cruise, right? He’ll say, okay, if you want to come to my location, and it’s going to cost 700 for your site rental, and then you want 200 worth of food credits, and you want to rent a fire pit, and you want to rent a golf cart, and you want X number on your drinks.

You package all that together. Maybe it comes to 2, 000. He then divides that in equal payments based off of how far it is till the time they come. So if they’re booking six months in advance, he divides it by six. They make a monthly payment so that by the time they get there, everything is paid for, and it is great.

Brilliant and it’s working for him. But because [00:18:00] he created his own little side company over here to do that. They’re signing in. They are signing an agreement to pay this amount, so there’s no refunds ever. You can’t get a refund. He’ll however move your date for you so or you can transfer that to someone else.

So then, so it’s, he has not had, he’s in a area where there’s a lot of military, so they do have going and coming. You But we’ve been able to figure out that if somebody is leaving that’s already had a reservation and now they can’t take it, they, there’s somebody that’s coming in, they can usually sell it to.

And so we just changed the names. And so these are all really creative ways that I think parks are finding to deal with this problem. I 

Christine Taylor: think there are creative ways. I think that’s great. And you should do that. For example, hotels have been doing things for a long time. I don’t know why we’re behind this theme on that.

I would caution to be very careful of calling any of this insurance. You [00:19:00] cannot call this insurance in most places because there are insurance regulations. You cannot, I’ve looked into it for some people, do not call it insurance. And if you notice, hotels who offer kind of cancellation insurance, it’s not usually through them, it’s through a different third party for this very reason.

Please feel free to do something that acts as trip insurance, but please don’t call it insurance, because unless you are some kind of registered, licensed insurance, company, you are not allowed to offer insurance, do not call it insurance. You can do something very similar, but language matters, and I don’t want you to think you’re doing something nice for your guests and get in trouble.

Cara Czismadia: Don’t do that. I was going to ask, because our insurance industry in Canada is so regulated, I 

Christine Taylor: It’s actually the same here, Cara, it’s just most people don’t know that. Do not use the word insurance, unless a third party company does. Unless you hooked up with a third party insurance company, whatever that is, like [00:20:00] Lions or something like that’s offering it and you’re not.

If you’re going to offer it in Kernel House, it’s not insurance. Come up with another cheap name, like Rainy day, go away. I don’t care. 

Jeff Hoffman: That’s why we keep you on the call, Christy. 

Christine Taylor: It’s because this everyone is trying to come up with something creative and I don’t think it’s bad like I’ll be closer to your neck of the woods this summer, Cara.

I’m going to visit my husband’s family in Canada again. And every time we do that, we have a back and forth about, Oh, should we buy the trip insurance? Oh, do I pay for everything up front? Are we sure we’re going to go three months from now? It’s the same thing. Nobody bats an eye at it for flights or hotels or anything else I pay more, I, I pay less if I want it to be nonrefundable, I pay more if I want it to be refundable, and I think that’s a model we can for sure adopt.

I like that one, I would love to do that Hey, if you want this to remain refundable, then you will need to pay me another 50, and if you don’t want it to be refundable, [00:21:00] I’ll give you a 50 discount, which is fine, because it’s not insurance, so we’re good to go on that one. 

Cara Czismadia: I’m curious about, we’re having, we have some challenges on the insurance front up here in Canada that has members bringing some necessity to the association to look at, some inherent risk legislation and impacting some of that.

Currently, our specific industry doesn’t really have any protection from inherent risk. The amusement park industry and the ski industry and things like that all have those things in place. So I’ve been down a bit of a rabbit hole doing some research on some of this as we prepare to add this to our advocacy work.

But I, I think some states are have been able to achieve this. I don’t know if any of you can speak to it, but can you give some insight into Maybe how or how valuable that is, or is there data about, does this protect parks in, [00:22:00] in those states in a way that the parks in other states are struggling with?

Christine Taylor: It protects, so if we use an industry that, has them, so there’s a lot of states that have inherent risk in equine activities. That’s one where it has been a lot before. And it does protect in the sense that it acts as a deterrent. But what an inherent risk law does is essentially makes the waiver stronger or makes you in the same place if you never got a waiver in the sense that you were telling the people up front that the activity they’re participating in is inherently risky.

So it goes to the contributory part of the case. If I, skydiving is something we should all understand is inherently dangerous, right? Exactly. And, but they still have you sign a bajillion things because they’re trying to tell you up front, if you choose to partake in this activity, you might get hurt.

I warn you, this isn’t a requirement. You don’t have to jump out of an airplane. You’re choosing to do so if you get [00:23:00] hurt while doing it, you knew up front you had the chance to not participate in that activity, and you did anyway. That lessens some of my liability. So by having these inherent risk laws, we get to start from that place As a matter of law, we’ve defined this activity as something that is inherently dangerous, or that there’s an inherent risk to it, so again, you don’t have to camp, it’s a privilege, not a requirement, and you chose to partake in it, even knowing that as a matter of law, it’s risky, so if you got hurt while doing it, your claim is worth less, because If the thing was still risky.

Now what lawyers are going to do with that is they’re going to be like, cool, get that, but wow, Cara, I’ve never cut your shrubs ever and this pathway got completely overgrown. So you have, there’s a negligence piece to it as well. So yeah, the activity is dangerous, but you made it worse. It cuts it off somewhere.

It’s not gonna make the lawsuit go away. [00:24:00] Go away, it’s gonna make recovery less because they’ll, as a matter of law, have to share in the kind of You chose to do this anyway, type of market. 

Cara Czismadia: That’s good insight. I wonder, is in maybe some of the others can speak to this portion, does, in the states where there are inherent risk legislation in place, Is insurance coverage for campgrounds more accessible and better priced, more competitively priced?

Jeff Hoffman: Ohio won it 

Christine Taylor: fast. 

Jeff Hoffman: I didn’t see a big difference. We’re in a 

Christine Taylor: national pool, Cara. That’s what happened. We get pooled together with everybody, so unless we had some kind of federal thing that caused everyone to come down, I don’t truly see there being a massive difference. Because we’re all still insured [00:25:00] by the same very few carriers.

Cara Czismadia: Okay. 

Jeff Hoffman: Cara how we, because what we did was take Wisconsin’s draft and start working with it. 

Christine Taylor: Yep. 

Jeff Hoffman: And then met with A lot of the people that would be interested in the bill, the big one is the Association of Liability Attorneys, or whatever you want to call them, the litigators. Once we got them to actually agree and sign off, because in the end it’s pretty much what Christina said, they’ll always find something they can sue you for if they want to.

But it does give the owner of the campground a warm and fuzzy feeling that on stupid things, they can always say, Look, we have this, liability coverage that says there’s things inherent in camping, like you tripping over a tree root. [00:26:00] I can’t solve that. But, if it’s something I did that would cause the injury, I can still be sued.

But, if you want to start it in Canada, I would, get a draft of one that’s been passed and then work with the trial attorneys. That’s going to be your main competition against 

Cara Czismadia: it. Maybe I’ll follow up with you, Jeff, pick your brain a little bit. 

Jeff Hoffman: I’ve been through that and a lot of committees and, 

Cara Czismadia: yeah. All the 

Jeff Hoffman: companies. It was fun. 

Cara Czismadia: I bet. Yeah. No, it’s, obviously really valuable. And I apologize, I segwayed the whole conversation to insurance. I lit up when that happened because it’s so on my plate right now. Specific to, to that, I think It’s an obvious necessity, we’re also trying to balance members’ best interest and help them have support in whatever ways they can.

I’m curious to know, Christina, are there any kind of hot button [00:27:00] legal things happening right now? Stuff that’s on your radar that’s new or same old sale? 

Christine Taylor: No, to some. To some degree, it is the same old thing, but what it is things have ramped up. I have a lot of employment lawsuits right now, like a lot of them.

Current employees, former employees. I’m going to be honest, it’s because notoriously campground owners did a bad job of paying and treating employees as the correct classifications. And because we’re in what I would call an economically strained period people like to assume that campground owners have deep pockets.

If you still haven’t updated how you’re deploying your employees to fit your local laws, state, country, whatever take a look at that. That one’s still important. But it does mean an increase in what I call 5K go away injury suits, like I slipped and fell the tree root as Jeff said, like those type of things have increased because again, it’s all these quick kind of money [00:28:00] grabs.

The one thing I would flag that, was in our attention about five years ago, but we’ve stopped paying attention to, is those a DA law lawsuits now in 2019. We talked a lot about the website. That technically still hasn’t gone away so if you, that’s still a thing in the U. S. that you’re through, but the ADA has a lot of other pieces to it and more people are getting hit.

I used to call them like drive by lawsuits. Like any building, they drive by, see there wasn’t a ramp, and then, they’d send you something. The thing is that campgrounds, now having been clearly defined as public accommodations under that law are subject to all that, which means if you have rental units, you need to make sure you have one.

I call it the hotel method. You go to a hotel, and they have so many rooms that are handicapped compliant with the ADA. We have to do similarly. So if you’re putting in a bunch of new cabins, you should think about putting in one that’s ADA compliant. It goes all the way down to mini golf courses, and I’m being fully [00:29:00] transparent.

I don’t think I know a single campground that has a mini golf course that’s ADA compliant. But if you have 18 holes, half of them, nine of them, are supposed to be ADA compliant. And there’s a whole set of rules for that. So I flagged that because I think we Click it off our radar for a while because it wasn’t that hot button, but I know that it’s still there and Could still happen So I just want people to pay attention to that from a lawsuit perspective and just as a hey You know if you happen to be that rare campground that’s Accessible it’s going to drive you a lot of extra business because there are very few that are, so maybe, we don’t think of it so much as a negative having to comply with these kind of accessibility requirements, but positive that we have a whole new marketing thing and very little competition in that arena.

Sandy Ellingson: I actually had a park in Texas that was just they filed a lawsuit against them because their RV site. [00:30:00] was not ADA compliant. Now this park had no, nothing except RV sites, their bathroom was ADA compliant, their office was ADA compliant, and the couple still filed a lawsuit against them, and what was so nice was they won in 15 minutes in front of the judge because The site actually met all the qualifications of having enough space for a vehicle to pull up next to it and for a wheelchair and all this kind of stuff.

The problem was, the RV itself was not ADA compliant. The judge came back and said, how can you expect us to have a site that’s ADA compliant when you yourself, your rig is not ADA compliant? And so it took about, but it was, they were really scared because it took three months to get it on the docket.

And so 

Christine Taylor: That was quick, Sandy. A lot of my litigation suits are 18 months, so three months is quick. 

Sandy Ellingson: I was going to say three months [00:31:00] to get, just get it into court. Was scary enough for them. Yeah, that’s pretty interesting. The other thing I’ve seen happening a lot more lately, and I don’t know that any lawsuits have come out of this, but, All the states have different periods of time for how long you can stay without being considered a resident.

And if they can get away with it and they can tell, they can sweet talk that person at the guest who doesn’t know the rules and regulations. Oh, such and such happened, can I stay just one more week, right? And that one more week puts them over the 180 days or whatever that is, then game on. And they’re there for six months and they’re not paying a penny.

And we’ve seen, I know of at least 10 situations that are happening right now. 

Christine Taylor: What it does is it just boots you into the traditional landlord tenant category. So there’s still a mechanism to remove them, it’s just not my favorite one. It just means that you’re, you’ve converted yourself into a mobile home park or an apartment complex [00:32:00] or whatever, comparatively.

I still get to evict them, it’s just now I have to evict them, whereas when I went to campground I didn’t have to. This is more of a problem in warmer climates, where they’re open year round, than it is in northern climates when they close. Because I’ve won a couple lawsuits about this.

I had a campground that was open 11 months a year. So they closed one month, just January, and we won our lawsuit because the judge determined that we could never be housing because there was no actual 12 months a year. So they would have to go somewhere else and have somewhere else to live. In the Northeast, I tell people who try to stay open all year long to weigh the economic return versus the possible downside of being considered a landlord.

Unfortunately, in the South, every park is open year round that’s why you tend to run into those issues. But, it’s Stinks to be put into that category, but just to flag there, there still is a process to [00:33:00] remove them. You’re just like every other landlord then is what? Yeah. 

Jeff Hoffman: I’m glad we brought this subject up because I’m trying to work with the state of Ohio because each judge rules differently and we even have some prosecutors that won’t even take it to the court.

So what I’m trying to do is set up a meeting with the Ohio Attorney General to sit down and come up with what rules apply and how they apply so that we can hit the front desk. So when the police officer or whomever comes out, We can point to the section and code of how we’re asking to have those people removed, so that, because most police officers do not, I hate to say it, but they don’t know the laws any different from a campground to a campground.

a normal eviction. 

Christine Taylor: I hate to be the doom [00:34:00] and gloom character of this, but my problem is that in states where I have very robust guidance and even statutes I still have struggled to have either local law enforcement do it correctly or even the judges to agree correctly. And where that leaves me is Again, there is a mechanism, but nobody wants to do it because of the economic burden, so that’s dragging one of these institutions, whether it’s law enforcement or the judge or something, to be like, you’re doing something wrong.

And then also is a terrible hit on the goodwill. So nobody wants to go above their law enforcement’s head or piss off their local judge and drag them through a court, even if they are wrong, because they still have to operate their business in that area. And until I get in all of these states, someone willing to sue , the local government I’m going to have a lot of problems in getting.[00:35:00] 

Jeff Hoffman: That’s one of the reasons I wanted to go to the AG of Ohio so that I can have his opinion of the laws on top of it. 

Christine Taylor: But it doesn’t, they still, so I guess the reason courts have an appellate system is because they don’t always get it right at the bottom level and that’s been my unfortunate sticking point in a multitude of states.

Is that even with opinions, even with someone who should have credit I’ve had completely different interpretations across the states over and over again. And I, because again, we’re, a place that lets municipalities have different laws and states have different laws. I really think it’s going to take to a big ol lawsuit and putting some economic pressure on the governments to defend it to get a unified decision all the time.

That’s my doom and gloom, only because I thought it would get better [00:36:00] since more laws came out over the last four years, and it really hasn’t. 

Cara Czismadia: I would say that’s a bit doom and gloomy for me, as we are definitely, despite the climate change, impact or component up here. We absolutely are facing this challenge in several areas of the country.

I’m also in a dynamic where many more urban locations are financially motivating campgrounds to stay open year round to address a significant and extreme housing crisis. 

So this is putting members in a position where They’re being motivated to function in that way, and they often don’t have the awareness or education to understand the long term or potential implications of making that business operations choice and what that may mean for them long term.

And that, so now we’re facing this dynamic where they’ve got folks that, again, won’t leave, they’re having to go through eviction process [00:37:00] as a landlord when they had no intention of ever being one. We have been trying to address this. From a industry education standpoint at this point we’re creating a guide and working with lawyers to generate some really firm, hopefully pretty solid license to occupy terminology that really limits any possibility for them to claim, as tenants.

But it’s, in many cases, it continues to come down to that length of stay component. Which is getting really challenging in this environment. And we’re trying to create this guide and all these resources for members to try to educate them to make their own business decisions with every piece of info.

It’s one thing as a, as an operator. And I have members who choose to, stay open year round and have the, some of them have tenants in British Columbia where the climate is temperate. Some of them have clients who’ve been in the park for 10 straight years. And [00:38:00] so those individuals, I think, are making a choice, provided they have all the information to function in a way that, that, they are classified as a landlord in that case, in that instance.

But, to provide the information and awareness to members at large, I think is valuable and certainly a good role for the association. But I, your doom and gloom is there for sure in terms of, impacting any sort of, I think we, it would be ideal to see some kind of case precedent set, which we are seeing in some areas of the country to help us with the whole conversation, but I’m not confident that we’ll ever get to a place where, there’s a streamlined set of criteria to help.

Christine Taylor: I think you’re right. I think it’s very difficult. So New York’s a big state, right? So I have two ones that stick out most to me, is I have a campground that in their location and again, they didn’t want to push back for a host of reasons. The judge determined that they had to give the [00:39:00] people an additional 18 months to get off their property.

18 months! So that was supposed to only be a seasonal, that was there May through October, and they had to let them in their unit stay for another 18 months. And they were like, you know what, Chrissy, it’s just not worth it to us we’ll just Follow that judge’s order and, we won’t poke it anymore, but there’s no precedent for that judicial decision because even in regular landlord tenant law never has a judge been like, Oh, you have to give that person a year and a half to move out.

No, that’s ridiculous. My problem is that, there are all these laws, there’s these opinions, I can do things till I’m blue in the face, but, like anything else, until, There’s a more of a push whether it’s an economic because they don’t want to get hit with it or a PR or something that really makes it nasty for the people making those decisions.

I’m not sure that I’m ever going to be able to stay with 100 percent and when it’s doing it’s causing [00:40:00] You know, campgrounds to creatively remove people in ways that could get them in trouble I have a campground who cut off the utilities to somebody because, and because that judge then determined that person was really a tenant, that campground owner now has a felony.

You can’t turn off utilities to tenants. My, my concern really is that it, I don’t know that there’s a wand I can wave to make it better. And we’ve just been over the last, surely four years seeing how it’s shook out so differently in every location and every, Case in every campground, and it’s all, there’s nothing uniform, and as an attorney that makes me incredibly uncomfortable because I would love to be like, hey, this is the law, this is what we do, we’re all on the same page, and we’re just not there yet.

Jeff Hoffman: How do you feel about what just got passed in North Carolina? Have you read that? 

Christine Taylor: I’ll need a little more than [00:41:00] that. Should I have read that in the last few weeks? No, I have not read it past the last year, maybe. 

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah. No they actually passed a uniform type code for removals. 

Christine Taylor: Oh, yes. Yeah. Okay.

Yes, I know what you’re talking about. Yeah, a lot of states have that type of thing. In New York, we have, we are code limits effective in 2020. Pennsylvania hooked up with the hotel code. That was in 2020. Vermont has always had something like that. There, my problem is that it hasn’t, and I hate to say this, it hasn’t mattered.

What it has done for me is deterred what I would call like a private lawsuit. So I try to remove somebody, they hire an attorney who comes and yells at my client you can’t do it, it’s housing. And then I go to that attorney and go, you’re wrong, there’s this law. And then they go away. So it’s helped me get rid of those lawsuits.

What it hasn’t helped me with is getting the law enforcement to remove the people or Uniformly convinced the judge that this isn’t [00:42:00] housing, so I’ve still been dragged to court over these things. So I can, I can’t say that they’ll ever necessarily go all the way I want them to because of that piece.

But it does help deter the private lawsuit. I’m gonna ha my attorney’s gonna send you a letter, tantrum that people were throwing. I have gotten rid of those and gotten less of those. It hasn’t helped me as much in the court system. Because, I say the worst part of my job is people, because people are unpredictable.

That judge might have had the worst camping experience in their life, and hate campgrounds, and just, blankets aside that they aren’t going to do anything. Or maybe they’re worried about the housing crisis, as Cara said, and our team forced everybody to be a landlord, and I’m just stuck with their individual interpretation.

Jeff Hoffman: I just never realized how bad it was out there, depending on the judge or the county or the sheriff. 

Christine Taylor: Yep, every person. 

Jeff Hoffman: Because I’ve always had good working relationships with [00:43:00] them. 

Christine Taylor: Our campgrounds too. I’ve always, I’ve had no problem removing people and I’ve never had an issue. Knock on wood.

But but, county over.

Jeff Hoffman: Since I took over as president of the Ohio campground owners, I’ve run into, telling a law director that they had no idea what they were talking about, and they don’t like that. And then I have a judge that just refuses to hear the cases. He won’t even let them file to do it. And I’m like, you’ve got to be kidding.

Christine Taylor: There’s, yeah, there’s rules where we run into that. What I was just saying is that the next step is then I have to drag that judge’s decision to another court or that law enforcement’s decision somewhere else, but I’m not physically moving my business. We don’t really want to do that in the sense that’s just creating ill will between us that you’re never going to [00:44:00] be on my side because now I got you admonished by your mom, if you will, in the system.

Okay. You’re never going to like me after that. So that ends up being the balance is that no campground owner wants to fight with their local government because that’s a forever issue. And 

Sandy Ellingson: I think part of the problem goes back to the campground owner to begin with, because they need to decide what kind of business are they operating.

If they want that to be a long term stay park, then they need to look at what the laws are about what kind of dwellings can go into that park. Because if you look at any RV that was produced by the RV industry, there is a sticker on it that says this is a recreational vehicle and is not designed for staying in long term, right?

And so you’ve got somebody in an RV in your park, but you are allowing them to live there [00:45:00] year round. You’re breaking the laws, right? You’re facilitating it. And so I do the one to me, one of the biggest pet peeves I have and the biggest problems I have is as an RV industry as a whole, we want to lump them together.

In so many states, there’s no difference between a long term stay park and a transient park. And those numbers get mixed with our numbers and we never know really where we are. It’s interesting with that. All the different hotels interested in the RV industry now, they bring to it a different perspective.

And so when I start having conversations with them and say, oh no, when we have a significant number of parks where 60 percent of the time somebody is living there year round, they get this look on their face like, what? And so they don’t understand that. They want to know the difference, how many of them, they looked at some of our numbers from different people and they said, wait a minute.

How do I know which ones are long term stay and which ones are transient? I said you can’t. [00:46:00] There’s no way you’re getting numbers rolled up as long as they say they’re an RV park or campground. Their numbers are getting rolled into all of this data. We have to figure that out as an industry. I don’t know in Canada it may be different.

The laws may be different, and you may be in a better place, but we’re definitely not right now. 

Cara Czismadia: Yeah, no I agree with you. I think we’re in a very similar position but we’re also in a dynamic. I, my ex husband who still owns the campground I used to own, had his own municipality come to him and say, this municipality issues him an annual, an operating permit that says you can only host a guest for 180 maximum days in a calendar year.

This year, the municipality came to him and said, There’s a massive housing crisis, and all these people have nowhere to go we’d like for you to stay open for the winter. We’ll waive that portion of your operating permit, [00:47:00] and, I can see as an operator that suddenly, your revenue generation opportunity is doubled all of a sudden, you have 12 months instead of 6, and all those things, but, when he, him and I sat down and talked about it, I said to him, there’s a significant amount of potential negative repercussion that could last long term.

And at any time, if the county at some point decides they want to go back to their old ways, now you’re on the hook to deal with all of these folks who’ve been staying there at that point, who knows how long. 

I just, it completely changes the, the kind of vibe and the feel of the property and the place.

You really have to, as an operator, be really conscious about all of the potential outcomes of making a choice to, to shift your business in that way. And, I think there’s a significant, there’s obviously a place for it, especially right now there’s demand [00:48:00] for it. We have. I have a municipality out in the in Halifax, in Nova Scotia, that paid a campground to stay open for the winter.

They covered their water and garbage and, municipal services to help house these people, but now it’s springtime and this campground wants to open for their season and those individuals don’t want to leave. There’s all kinds of potential outcomes. Like Christine said, people are unpredictable and you can’t know exactly how that’s always going to go.

It’s really concerning right now for our industry here. And also, Sandy the component of the RV seasonality and all of that, I think that the RV industry is really, trying to be cognizant of making sure that Their product is understood and used in a safe way.

And the challenge there is the consumer, I was talking with one of our lawyers we’ve been talking to about our license to occupy resources and all of [00:49:00] that, and I was, I asked, is there any sort of precedent set around the fact that the, these RVs themselves are not technically, coded compliant to live in?

Does that impact a judge’s decision? And she said no. She said you can set every rule you possibly want, but if the consumer is doing it, is choosing to do it, and a campground operator is choosing to host them to do it, it doesn’t matter what the code says. See, the RV industry can set all kinds of intentions, but the actual use, the intent of use, is different than the actual use of one.

And that’s concerning. It needs to be considered in the decision. 

Sandy Ellingson: Yeah, it’s, I’ve got two park owners that are doing creative things. Christine, I don’t know if this is the best legal idea, okay? I’m just going to tell you what I’ve seen. I’ve got one park that’s in the panhandle of Florida and his [00:50:00] rule is that you are welcome to come and stay with him for as long as you want to stay, but every 28 days you have to leave for 48 hours.

So you have to pull your rig off, go somewhere else, and then you can come back and you can stay another 28 days, and he also rotates you on a different site. So as long as he can do it. Then I’ve got another park that’s in Central Florida, and I just thought he was brilliant when he did this. He bought up six parks all within about 50 miles of each other.

Primarily all he handles is seasonal guests, the snowbirds come down. But what he did was he said that if you’re coming to stay with me, you can come and stay with me for six months. But you’re staying with me as a park system. He makes them move every month into a different one of his six parks.

And they’re not far enough away that people go, oh, this is terrible. And he lets them move in groups because the most [00:51:00] important thing to them was their people that they traveled with. And in that way, he’s avoiding, in Florida, it’s 180 days. The minute you get to 181 days then you’re an occupant, then you’re a resident.

And I think these are two ways that they’re really creatively trying to handle still being open, still being there for the guests, but the, and the other benefit to that is when people have to move, they don’t build their kingdom. They don’t put out all the garbage and the tchotchkes that say this is my place and I live here, right?

And so it keeps that park Looking like it’s transitory so that the other guests don’t come in and go. Oh my gosh half these people live here This isn’t a I’m looking for my kind of people right the campers So I thought they were pretty creative in the way they were handling it 

Christine Taylor: Mileage may vary.

That’s a state by state thing. I caution only because in some states they will aggregate the time that person is there. So when you’re a [00:52:00] person making them move 28 days, they don’t care. They’ll be like, okay, that’s 28 28 plus 28. Oh, that’s 181. So I just, I flagged that. Be very careful depending on the state you’re in, because in some states they aggregate all that time and it wouldn’t matter.

Sandy Ellingson: In Florida, it is not, they don’t aggregate them. And it can’t just be 24 hours, which is why it’s 48. 

Cara Czismadia: Yeah, see, at least I think that’s the key here is knowing the law that’s applicable to you. And, if you can be innovative in a way that You know, meets guest expectation and consumer need, but also satisfies the regulatory expectations.

The challenge for sure comes in cases where a municipality flips on their head and says they want to do the opposite thing now, but staying on top of that stuff is valuable. And I think a good, reason to have a great lawyer and all those things in your back pocket. I know we’re getting close to the end and I just want to get, I wanted to ask Scott, we touched a [00:53:00] little bit on the ADA accessibility stuff.

You did that fabulous report last year. Will, is that going to be an annual report? thing? Are we going to build out reporting on that every year? 

Scott Bahr: It looks like it, but yeah, at least maybe not always quite as extensive, but it’s something that, that we’re still measuring. We still, we, we have new data on, that issue just as an aside, I don’t want to say it as an aside, but a member of my family is disabled in a wheelchair and he says, he’s a very avid camper.

His advice to any campground owner is, aside from ADA compliant sit in a wheelchair and try to access the thing. 

Cara Czismadia: In your 

Scott Bahr: park. 

Christine Taylor: You 

Scott Bahr: just do it. He’s go to the kitchen. If it’s a cabin, go to the kitchen, in a wheelchair, he’s, and it tried to get out of the bed, in the bed and out of the bed, the bathroom, all those things.

That’s the advice he gives. because he’s like You can be ADA compliant, but it’s not, sometimes it’s not that [00:54:00] useful. 

Cara Czismadia: Yeah, I think that the actual tangible experience itself is eye opening. Do you, in the reporting, Scott, are you guys tracking, do you have any idea or measure of how many parks offer ADA compliant amenities and spaces?

Do we have a number? 

Scott Bahr: We don’t in our work. It’s, to be honest with you, in some of the work we’ve done, it’s there’s a drop off and lack of awareness. It’s spotty, like some parts of the park maybe, but it’s not fully converted. So it, I would say there’s a decent number of park owners who don’t know, 

Christine Taylor: like especially 

Scott Bahr: if they’re new owners.

But they don’t know. It’s not the question they asked when they bought the park. But 

Sandy Ellingson: new park developers that are coming from the commercial side are very aware of it. They just may not know all the details, but they [00:55:00] know that when they’re building a commercial mini strip that what has to be outside ADA compliant.

When you go into those buildings Is the bathroom going to be ADA compliant? And so a lot of your newer parks, you will find that not only are they ADA compliant, but they’ve gone overboard with the ADA compliance to the standard, right? To the ADA standard. They’ve done more. And so I do think we’re seeing more and more in some of the, with the newer commercial investments.

Cara Czismadia: And then, sorry, one more question for Scott. On the, we were talking about seasonal versus short term stay parks. Are you, when you’re doing your North American Camping Report and all that, are you capturing anything to compare those two demographics of the consumer industry? 

Scott Bahr: We can, we have that information. So we don’t always, there’s so many data points where they don’t always make it out there, but we have those data points. If anyone’s interested, please. And I just, you are. So yes, we can talk about [00:56:00] that. 

Cara Czismadia: Okay I am actually shocked that an hour flew by so quickly, and we covered some doom and gloom, but some good positive things too.

I’m really excited on this kind of big, momentous day here in Canada, May 1st, Campgrounds are opening day for another good season. And, I think we talked about some of the concerns around reservations and how those things are looking but I’m positive. And so hopeful that we have a really great weather year and that things are going to go wonderfully for us up here this summer.

I know you guys have a different dynamic with your snowbirds are a good friend of mine just came home yesterday. He was snowbirding all winter they’re heading back this way, but Yeah, I’m excited for another camping season and so grateful for you guys and your time today.

It was great to catch up with you all. I I loved seeing all of you in Denver in October and hope I can catch up with you guys again sometime before the fall. 

Scott Bahr: Excellent. 

Cara Czismadia: Thanks so [00:57:00] much for your time today, guys. 

Christine Taylor: Nice having you back. 

Cara Czismadia: Thanks. Hi Brian. 

Scott Bahr: Yes, hi Brian. 

Cara Czismadia: Yeah. Have a great day guys. Thank you. 

Scott Bahr: Bye.

For this episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searl. Have a significant day. Justin for a show idea. Want your campground or company new future episode? Email us at [email protected]. Get your daily dose of news from modern campground.com and be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor [00:58:00] hospitality.