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General Discussion (May Contain Spoilers from S1 to 2nd film)
I'm doing a rewatch and it's been a while since my last full one. I'm watching S2 again and for the first time, I wonder how genuine Mary's friendship with Lavinia was. Mary was truly in love with Matthew. Given what we'd seen from her up until that point and in seasons after (Mabel Lane Fox comes to mind), it doesn't seem in character for her to have been so kind and so genuinely friendly toward Lavinia. I don't mean she had a problem with her personally, but Mary was always ready to fight for her man, other people's men, and even men she didn't want! Given "what you read about the Edwardian these days" as Robert put it, I wonder if the audience was meant to assume/speculate as to whether Mary felt maybe she couldn't be the Countess of Grantham due to the Pamuk scandal, but still had Matthew's heart and wasn't going to give it up. There were plenty of married people who had long-term affairs that were open secrets. There was a Duchess of Devonshire, known as the "Double Dutchess" who'd been married to a Duke but had a decades-long affair with the Duke of Devonshire. When their spouses died years later, they married without scandal. It seems so unlike Mary to accept Lavinia lying down. I wonder if JF may have originally had plans to do something along these lines, but a bit later in the show. Dan Stevens' leaving was a surprise to JF so maybe he had to push things up a bit? I'm always preaching that we can't assume things if they're not in the script, but I can't imagine Mary being so quick to give Matthew up before he got married- or after.
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I think Mary was kind to lavinia for three reasons.
BECAUSE she loved Matthew truly. And thought lavinia would make him happy now that she and Matthew were done for, esp after he was told he was paralyzed.
Lavinia wasn't a threat to her birth, money, looks wise according to that time and she knew Matthew wasn't One-upping or making her jelaous or stuff like that. She could tell Matthew lavinia were genuine.
I think she was also trying to overcompensate by being nice to her after she ruined things between herself and Matthew by refusing him when he had nothing and wanting him when he was the heir again. And overcompensating because it wasn't anyone's girl, lavinia was Matthew's girl and even though she couldn't have Matthew romantically, she wanted him as a friend.
Just one correction: Mary never refused Matthew, she took too long to give him an answer, and he withdrew his proposal 👍
But yeah, otherwise agree. Lavinia was genuinely in love with Matthew, Matthew was happy to be with her. Mary thought Matthew didn't love her anymore, she wanted him to be happy, and also she felt guilty for driving Matthew away from Downton. Not just because she lost him, but because Downton was important to her and she wanted the heir to want to be there, for the family's sake.
Being friendly to Lavinia meant that Matthew would be happy, and she wanted him to be happy, and it also meant he'd want to come back, so she would see more of him, they could be friends (she literally tells him "we're friends again" in 2.1 when he and Lavinia visit for the first time). And it also meant he wouldn't be uncomfortable visiting Downton, and keeping in touch with her father, who loved Matthew like a son, and Mary didn't want to be the one to ruin any of that.
oh yeah true. They just insuinate that she "refuses him", i think the dowager might have said that. But yeah agree with what you said!
I actually like that the other characters went with "Mary refused him" because it's so On Point character writing. They don't really know Mary, most of them didn't know what happened, they just assume what she would do based on what she projects to the world. And Mary would rather the world thinks her opportunistic rather than a lovelorn idiot who's brought scandal to the family's doorstep.
Mary loved Matthew too much to agree to marry him without telling him the truth, but she also couldn't tell him the truth because she was convinced he'd hate her (given what the people who knew her thought of her because of her scandal).
But I think it's so telling of how she felt that she also couldn't bring herself to refuse him, because she loved him too much to do that, she did want to marry him she was just too much of a coward to tell him the truth. So she waited and waited until Matthew started having doubts about her interest in him (after all that had happened with the entail, where he had already started feeling like a spare part, being the heir one moment and not being the heir the next), so he withdrew his proposal.
And Matthew would let everybody believe that because if he withdrew his proposal it would be shameful for Mary. He would, if anybody asked, take the fall because he would never wish scandal on Mary and would want her to marry and me happy (he asks her about that the first time he returns).
But Isobel says to Violet that he's making the same mistake as Mary so I think she knows and, by extension perhaps Violet does, but she would also never admit that to the world. Plus, she understands Mary best. The rest of them might well assume that Mary turned him down. Matthew stomping around the garden party certainly backs that up. He looked like a man who had just been turned down rather than somebody who had just dumped his girlfriend. Which is lucky because it's briefly embarrassing to him to be turned down but it would be terminally disastrous to her if anybody knew he'd withdrawn his proposal to her. Particularly since there were already rumours. If Matthew knew about those I think he'd go out of his way to point out that she refused him.
They also base it on what THEY would do. Rosamund pushes Mary to string Matthew along until the baby arrives, so she won't be stuck with a solicitor. They encourage her to dig up dirt on Lavinia to wreck her and Matthew. Everyone who knows about Pamuk thinks she should just never tell. That's what THEY would do.
I knew you would be here as soon as I saw the post title!
I’ll also add that Mary tells Matthew that she and Lavinia are very alike so naturally Mary loves her. On the face of it this seems like nonsense as Mary and Lavinia seem to be almost opposites. But Mary says this right after learning that Lavinia broke into her uncle’s office to get evidence for Carlisle to save her father. Mary, too, would do all sorts of risky and brave things to save her father and downtown. So in this way I think Mary admired Lavinia.
Haha, I'm definitely predictable, but I had to be here! Lavinia and Mary's friendship is one of the best things about season 2, which means it's one of the best things about the show, and I don't know why people are so dismissive of it, it's excellent writing!
I agree absolutely with your assessment of why Mary likes her, and why they're alike. Mary always liked people who had a bit of a spine, and Lavinia had plenty of that. She was just gentle where Mary was severe. After all, the girl had the guts to go visit with the Crawleys with no backup, as the middle class daughter of a lawyer who'd inherit it all. And of course Mary's admiration of her would grow after she learned the whole story about what went down with Carlisle.
And actually, Mary's priorities and Lavinia's align perfectly, because they both put Family > Doing the Right thing > Personal Interest, which, in Mary's eyes, would make Lavinia a perfect Countess, so she had confidence that Matthew's choice would be good for Downton, even if it meant it wouldn't be her.
P.S. I don't know why the kiss scene gets so much hate btw. It's such a perfect moment in its imperfection. It's wrong, yet inevitable, just *chefs kiss*. Literally any respect I have for Fellowes as a writer is for how awesome his work was for these characters in seasons 1 and 2. Absolute perfection.
I think one of the reasons, early on, is that it was war time. It was a time when everyone was scared every minute of what might happen. I think she loved Matthew deeply and was so afraid he might lose his life in the war that she didn’t want to do anything at all to ruin the amicable relationship they shared at that point.
She took it up on herself to take care of Lavinia because she knew that Matthew would want her to be taken care of. She did everything she knew to make him comfortable and love him. That’s why even she goes to tell Matthew how she’s feeling about him - that she’s still in love with him - she sees Lavinia suffering and chooses not to say anything. She was truly selfless in her love. If she lost Matthew she needed to love him in every way she knew possible
It was actually so beautiful for me to watch the way she acted. Despite violet and rosamund’s interference
That was one of the best high points of Mary
I think Mary was kind to Lavinia because she believed that Matthew didn't love her anymore, and the best thing for everyone was to try and move on. Being mean to her would have just made the tensions that were already there even worse.
Mary loved Matthew. She wanted him to want to stay at Downton and she wanted to be friends even if they wouldnt be a couple because she loved him that much.
And she did like Lavinia. She didnt tell Matthew she loved him because she could see Matthew was happy with Lavinia and Lavinia loved him truly. She was there for Lavinia when Matthew was injured and she didnt get between them when Lavinia came back. Yes she and Matthew kissed one time but I think they were overtaken in the moment it didnt look like they would do that regularly not with how guilty Matthew was and how much he valued honor since he knew he loved Mary but would still marry Lavinia because it was the honorable thing to do.
I dont think she was thinking it was keeping Matthew around because Mary thought Matthew loved Lavinia that he didn't love her so she had nothing to gain from being friendly to Lavinia early on. She just wanted Matthew to be happy and to be allowed to be his friend.
Mary never fought for any man. Tony was harassing her and left Mabel on his own Evelyn she always treated as a friend Charles she treated as a friend Henry was chasing her Matthew she loved him but was afraid of the scandal didnt respond to his proposal and Matthew left her. In the second movie the director wanted her and she pushed him away. Mary has never chased a man in the show.
At first she must have wanted to support Matthew no matter what because this time, she wanted her love to be happy esp because she had caused him so much pain.
Also, Mary was kind to kind hearted people. There are so many examples of Mary being an absolute sweetheart to people she knows are genuinely good like, Matthew, Sybil, Anna, William, Tom, Rose etc irrespective of their class, gender and looks. I think she appreciated the kindness they exuded naturally, something she often struggled with.
She realized she fucked up and created the situation she was in. She was a decent person at her core and ate her bruises.
Because Lavinia had nothing to do with Mary and Matthew not being together. Lavinia came two years after Mary screwed up her chances by being a huge snob. Being mean to Lavinia would have just alienated Matthew, also being nasty to the person that is going to get your house is just dumb and a sure way to get kicked out the moment Robert dies.
Also i wouldn't call them friends since Mary and Matthew decided to go behind her back and kissed while Lavinia was dying upstairs, which was horrible of them.
Dan Stevens leaving had nothing to do with, JF only knew about Dan leaving by the time of the christmas special. It is why Mary suddenly was heavy pregnant after a time skip
Oh, so uncharitable comment :(
Mary didnt need Matthew for the house she was marrying Carlisle she would live in Haxby not Downton and Matthew and Lavinia would live in Manchester anyway because Matthew didnt want to go back to Downton after the war.
Lavinia wasnt dying when they kissed. And they made a mistake and they knew it was a mistake and Matthew felt so guilty he didnt want to be with Mary if Robert hadnt told her to go to America he would let her marry Carlisle
She only was engaged with Richard by 2x05, prior that she very much needed Matthew and Lavinia. And Matthew would have to move to downton when Robert died.. Manchester was only while Robert was alive.
No, she was just lying sick in bed, the death came 24 hourse later.. But yeah Matthew felt bad about it, Mary on the other hand
you dont remember correctly. Richard proposed to her in 2.2. If she worried about her future at Downton she would have accepted his proposal and moved on immediately.
you seem not to understand how British aristocratic families work. You dont throw people out of the family because you dont get along. Mary and Edith didnt get along but they saved face for the sake of the family.
and Mary didn't need to be so kind to Lavinia she could just ignore her like everyone else did. or follow rosamund and damage her relationship with matthew she was engaged to richard then she could have done something against lavinia if she wanted. but mary didnt do that she went out of her way to help Lavinia instead.
I think you just dont like Mary so you see everything she does in the worst way. We can agree to disagree and leave it there, Im here to have fun not to get in fights.