Friday, May 17 2024 The meaning of the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness?

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Friday, May 17 2024​

He is the living God.—Dan. 6:26.

Jehovah has shown his supremacy over entire coalitions of rulers. He fought for Israel, enabling them to conquer large portions of the Promised Land. (Josh. 11:4-6, 20; 12:1, 7, 24) Time and again, Jehovah has proved to be the Supreme One! When King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon boasted about ‘his own strength and might and the glory of his majesty’ instead of humbly acknowledging Jehovah as the One deserving of praise, God struck him with insanity. After he recovered, Nebuchadnezzar “praised the Most High” and acknowledged that “[Jehovah’s] rulership is an everlasting rulership.” He added: “There is no one who can hinder him.” (Dan. 4:30, 33-35) The psalmist observed: “Happy is the nation whose God is Jehovah, the people he has chosen as his own possession.” (Ps. 33:12) What good reason, indeed, we have to keep our integrity to Jehovah! w22.10 15-16 ¶13-15
Examining the Scriptures Daily—2024​

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Question from a reader in Romania: Jehovah’s Witnesses base their 1914 doctrine on the prophecy found in Daniel 4:10-17. Could you please give me the correct meaning of this prophecy according to your understanding?

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ANSWER: The prophecy centers on King Nebuchadnezzar. In fact, he was the one whom God caused to have the dream, which Daniel was inspired to interpret and record for us.

The dream involved an gigantic tree that Nebuchadnezzar described thusly: “Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding, and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense. The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth. Its foliage was fair, and its fruit was abundant, and there was food for all on it. Under it the beast of the field would seek shade, and on its boughs the birds of the heavens would dwell, and from it all flesh would feed itself.”

At the time the Nebuchadnezzar had the dream he was presiding over the kingdom of Babylonia, which was the largest empire that had ever existed up until then. It had conquered many lands, including Assyria, Judah, Moab and Edom, Tyre and even Egypt. When the Persians took over the kingdom there were 120 satraps. A satrap was a governor of a province, like a viceroy of the modern British imperial system. So, Babylon ruled over 120 jurisdictional districts called satrapies.

As Daniel indicated Nebuchadnezzar’s rulership extended to the extremities of the earth. The king was represented by the immense tree and as the account goes on to show the king of Babylon was forced from his throne for seven times, which in his case turned out to be seven literal years and then his sanity and kingdom were restored to him.

Since its inception the Watchtower Society has taught that the immense tree actually represented the kingdom of Judah, which Nebuchadnezzar had cut down. And the seven times are interpreted to be 2,520 years. But there is no justification in connecting the “seven times” to the “appointed times” allotted to the nations to trample upon “Jerusalem.” Jesus was referring to a future desolation, not what had already occurred. (See article: The Gentile Times.)

And is it reasonable that the kingdom of Judah ought to be likened to an immense tree that was “visible to the extremity of the earth”? In what way was the tiny and relatively insignificant kingdom of Judah a haven for the “beast of the field”?

And how did all flesh feed itself by means of Judah? How did Judah extend its rule over the extremity of the earth?

True, during the glory days of Solomon the Queen of Sheba is said to have come from the ends of the earth to marvel at Solomon’s wisdom and the glory of his kingdom, but the kingdom did not last. The 10 tribes were ripped away from Jerusalem and had already been conquered by Assyria before the remaining Judean kingdom was felled by the Chaldeans. So, it is unreasonable that the diminished kingdom of Judah ought to be described in such grandiose terms as applied to Babylon.

But what is meant by the fact that the Most High set up over the world the lowliest one of mankind? Although Nebuchadnezzar was lifted up from his lowly state, surely it applies also to the one who is envisioned in the 7th chapter of Daniel as “someone like a son of man.” After all, every prophecy of Daniel concludes with the coming of the messiah and kingdom.

But here is the problem with the Watchtower’s interpretation: The purpose of God in removing the haughty and giving the kingdom to the lowly is so that people may know that the Most High is Ruler over mankind. Nebuchadnezzar certainly came to that realization. But were any of the political rulers of mankind forced to recognize the supremacy of the Most High back in 1914? Obviously not.

So, does the lesson imposed upon Nebuchadnezzar back then have any prophetic value as regards the coming of the kingdom? Yes, it does.

As Jehovah’s Witnesses ought to know, prophecy interprets prophecy. That being so, the prophet Ezekiel, who was a contemporary of Daniel and also an exile in Babylon, received a similar vision from God regarding a massive tree with its top in the heavens under whose shade all the populous nations dwelt. Like the tree in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream God commanded that the tree be cut down. Its felling is said to rock the world and is described as occurring in the “day belonging to Jehovah.”

But the tree Ezekiel wrote about is Egypt, not Babylon. But both Egypt and Babylon have prophetic significance. That is evident from the fact that the subjugation of “Egypt” appears in Daniel’s prophecy of the king of the north and south as something that will take place in “the time of the end.” And, of course, both Egypt and Babylon are part of the composite beast of Revelation. So, both Egypt and Babylon are interchangeably used to symbolize the last kingdom of Satan’s beastly system that will come under God’s judgment when the kingdom is given to Christ.

The coming of Christ in kingdom power is no ordinary event. It initiates the day of Jehovah – judgment day. The ouster of Satan from heaven will have the knock-on effect of striking a withering blow to the ruling earthly kingdom under the Devil’s dominion. The fall of the symbolic Egyptian cedar foreshadows the coming crash of America. The entire global system will shudder. But the beast will arise like the fabled phoenix for a time, just as the maddened king was briefly restored to his throne. (See article: Downfall of America)

The seventh chapter of Daniel harmonizes with the extension given to the beasts after the time the kingdom is given to Christ. Daniel 7:12 states: “But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season.”

So, the seven times may apply to the period of judgment that will commence in the aftermath of the fall of the leading nation of the world. It may be that the seven times are a literal seven years or simply a symbolic period. Time will tell. (No pun intended.)

But, we may be certain that during that period all people will be forced to know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind.

July 7th, 2013

Jehovah is referred to as the living God numerous times in the Bible. It is an interesting expression. God has always existed. He has always been alive. It is absolutely, humanly incomprehensible. Maybe angels cannot even comprehend how God could always have been alive. Everything else came into existence because God imparted life. God is the only being who did not receive life. He has just always been alive. Mind-blowing! It is a terrifying, yet wonderful realization. I suppose time did not exist until God first created Michael. That is why John 1:1 says, "In the beginning..." because that was the beginning of time, measured by the relation of a newly created life form to the living God.

When Satan accused God of being untruthful, it involved life. The first lie ever told was, "You will not die." But the Devil implied that God was selfish. God would not allow anyone to decide what was good and bad for themselves. Satan's accusation implies that the only reason anyone would obey God is to stay alive. In response to the Accuser, before any human had been born, "before the founding of the world," the living God purposed to bring forth a new creation of persons with life in themselves, something that not even the spirits possessed. Most incredible, with the exception of Christ, persons selected to become immortal and indestructible have been born into the sinful, dying human race.

Having life in themselves means that they will not have to rely on the living God to sustain them. Having life in themselves means that they can impart life to others, just like the living God. That's pretty amazing. Maybe then someone can understand how God could have always existed.

This thread is true spiritual food with scriptures, and it imparts real understanding of God’s inspired word uncontaminated by fleshly thinking.

Nehemiah 8:8: “And they continued reading aloud from the book, from the Law of the true God, clearly explaining it and putting meaning into it; so they helped the people to understand what was being read.”

Sometimes the most comments are on threads that involve the most ridiculous issues. This thread had no comments when I read it this morning except for Robert King’s comment. What a shame.

SusanB said:

This thread is true spiritual food with scriptures, and it imparts real understanding of God’s inspired word uncontaminated by fleshly thinking.

Nehemiah 8:8: “And they continued reading aloud from the book, from the Law of the true God, clearly explaining it and putting meaning into it; so they helped the people to understand what was being read.”

Sometimes the most comments are on threads that involve the most ridiculous issues. This thread had no comments when I read it this morning except for Robert King’s comment. What a shame.

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You're right, Susan. It is a real shame so we'll add our take away.
1914 is the perfect lure with the pitch, "millions now living will never die".
It difficult to think of any two words that have more appeal than "Never Die" and that's why people keep falling for the same old 1914 lie.
So, Watchtower just keeps perpetuating the lie.
Satan was absolutely brilliant in tagging those two words as part of the deluding influence. People want to believe it.

SusanB said:

This thread is true spiritual food with scriptures, and it imparts real understanding of God’s inspired word uncontaminated by fleshly thinking.

Nehemiah 8:8: “And they continued reading aloud from the book, from the Law of the true God, clearly explaining it and putting meaning into it; so they helped the people to understand what was being read.”

Sometimes the most comments are on threads that involve the most ridiculous issues. This thread had no comments when I read it this morning except for Robert King’s comment. What a shame.

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Great observation Susan! Speaking for myself and only me, I find myself drawn to (addicted to) drama, sensationalism and distraction. I have a strong tendency to be hypnotized by the excitement of people, places and things and all the trimmings that goes with those. To me, I am just like all other blinded R+F JW's (albeit with a little different and refined insights thanks to the combo of Robert and The Bible and a few key mentors here), I am really no different than those still trapped in WT. I will proceed to "meditate" as per my self imposed calling and wiggle out of this hypnosis as soon as I am able. Thank you Susan for helping me to see that I am indeed not using the scriptures very well in my engagements here. God love ya (GLY) I know a lot about the bible, now I just gotta read it!

I also loved the article, “A New Covenant for a New Creation”.

Here is a quote: “The Son of man will accomplish the recreation by means of resurrecting and rehabilitating Adam’s sin-ravaged offspring and teaching them how to subdue the earth in the way that Jehovah originally intended. By his victory over the world and death Jesus obtained the legal right to become mankind’s father in place of Adam.”

This is why Jesus is called Eternal Father. Isaiah 9:6: “For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

1 John 3:8b: “For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.”

J&P said:

You're right, Susan. It is a real shame so we'll add our take away.
1914 is the perfect lure with the pitch, "millions now living will never die".
It difficult to think of any two words that have more appeal than "Never Die" and that's why people keep falling for the same old 1914 lie.
So, Watchtower just keep perpetuating the lie.
Satan was absolutely brilliant in tagging those two words as part of the deluding influence. People want to believe it.

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Kind of like the rapture doctrine. People think they'll just go up & it'll all be smooth sailing into heaven.

See article "The Appointed Times of the Nations - Jehovah's Watchman" (Commentary on WT Text for December 10, 2017

Sunday, December 10 (2017)​

"Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?"—Acts 1:6.
Before Jesus ascended to heaven, his apostles asked the above. Jesus’ answer showed that it was not the time for them to know when God’s Kingdom would start ruling. He told his disciples to focus on the important witnessing work that they needed to do. (Acts 1:7, 8) .......When the time approached for God’s Kingdom in the hands of Jesus to start ruling from heaven, Jehovah helped his people to understand the timing of events. In 1876, an article written by Charles Taze Russell was published in the magazine Bible Examiner. That article, “Gentile Times: When Do They End?,” pointed to 1914 as a significant year. The article linked the “seven times” of Daniel’s prophecy with “the appointed times of the nations” spoken of by Jesus.

So a different set of rules for Watchtower.
It appears Watchtower's interpretation of Jesus' words "focus on the important witnessing work that they need to do (Acts 1:7,8)
applied only to the 1st century Christians. Too bad WT didn't follow their own advice to focus on the preaching work instead of trying to pinpoint the "timing of events".....but they couldn't resist.

(Acts 1:7, 8) 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.”

SusanB said:

By his victory over the world and death Jesus obtained the legal right to become mankind’s father in place of Adam.”

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One thing that is often overlooked and I'm not sure the updated version of the NWT does it any justice, by changing, "seed" to "offspring", but the fact is Jesus did NOT JUST sacrifice HIS LIFE!!! He sacrificed his "perfect seed" as well. If Jesus had taken a wife and had children, they would have been perfect, and just one of his children remaining faithful, would have condemned ALL of Adam's offspring to eternal death. But Jehovah's purpose was to redeem Adam's offspring, therefore Jesus "perfect seed" had to be sacrificed as well!

Just to back this up, remember Jesus mother was NOT perfect, yet she had a perfect son. Likewise, Jesus by being both perfect and his Father was actually Jehovah God, would have had perfect children. Incidentally, that would have also condemned their mother to death as well, being a daughter of Adam.

So the prophecy at Gen 2:15, the "seed" of Jesus, is actual the redeemed sons of Adam, who make up the 144,000. Because Jesus sacrificed his life and his seed, he legally "adopted" Adam's "seed" as well.

Nomex said:

One thing that is often overlooked and I'm not sure the updated version of the NWT does it any justice, by changing, "seed" to "offspring", but the fact is Jesus did NOT JUST sacrifice HIS LIFE!!! He sacrificed his "perfect seed" as well. If Jesus had taken a wife and had children, they would have been perfect, and just one of his children remaining faithful, would have condemned ALL of Adam's offspring to eternal death. But Jehovah's purpose was to redeem Adam's offspring, therefore Jesus "perfect seed" had to be sacrificed as well!

Just to back this up, remember Jesus mother was NOT perfect, yet she had a perfect son. Likewise, Jesus by being both perfect and his Father was actually Jehovah God, would have had perfect children. Incidentally, that would have also condemned their mother to death as well, being a daughter of Adam.

So the prophecy at Gen 2:15, the "seed" of Jesus, is actual the redeemed sons of Adam, who make up the 144,000. Because Jesus sacrificed his life and his seed, he legally "adopted" Adam's "seed" as well.

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Great points.

SusanB said:

This thread is true spiritual food with scriptures, and it imparts real understanding of God’s inspired word uncontaminated by fleshly thinking.

Nehemiah 8:8: “And they continued reading aloud from the book, from the Law of the true God, clearly explaining it and putting meaning into it; so they helped the people to understand what was being read.”

Sometimes the most comments are on threads that involve the most ridiculous issues. This thread had no comments when I read it this morning except for Robert King’s comment. What a shame.

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Tuve la misma sensación. Por aquí lo leyó Marah, la pequeña de la casa . Quiere comentar en el foro, ja! Quizás la incluya, os conoce a todos. Sus 8 años aportan mucha claridad, ella va al grano. Hay hermanos en Hawaii!! me dice con sus ojos bien abiertos marrones profundos. Le gusta la historia del rey come hierba. Este hilo nos ha fascinado. Nos ha hecho volver a escuchar Isaías en audiolibro mientras pintamos en silencio. Somos muy imperfectos, nos entretenemos por el camino con cualquier cosa. Cómo niños que solo quieren jugar y hay que darles más de un grito para que se sienten en la mesa a comer. Venga Susan, me sumo contigo: A COMER!!!!!!!