Why are we changing the system?
Our Donation Points system - introduced 6 years ago - uses a pool of money set aside by us each month (most recently ~$325,000) to reward mod authors for sharing their mods with the community. Authors earn Donation Points (DP) which they can exchange for free games, PayPal payments, donations to charity, and other rewards. This system currently uses unique downloads on mod pages to calculate the rewards and has remained unchanged since its inception.
In December 2023, we surveyed all active mod authors on the website to gather their opinions on the system (You might remember a slightly annoying full-page alert. Sorry about that!). Most of you said you were reasonably happy with the system but there were some key themes in what you didn't like about it which helped inform our decisions here.
As we see it, the overall impact of the Donation Points system has been a huge net positive for the modding community - with thousands of authors sharing in our success at Nexus Mods, on top of any donations they get directly from their fans.
It's not all blue skies and rainbows though. Over the years we've seen a steady culture change in the community which has seen many users alter how they release mods to maximise DP at the expense of the overall experience for the users of their content. While this might be good in the short term for the uploader, it's having a long-term detrimental effect on the community as a whole. Of the ~4,000 responses to our DP survey, this was by far the largest issue mod authors had with the system, and we agree.
We've classified these behaviours into a few key problem areas:
- Mod splitting - Breaking mods down into as many smaller parts as possible to post each part on a separate mod page where there is almost no reason to do so other than to maximise DP.
- Reposting updates - Creating a new mod page for each major (or minor) update to a mod. We understand that there are some legitimate concerns around the visibility of updated mod pages, but this is not a good solution. It's particularly bad for users who track your mod page to know when it has been updated.
- Mod list "stuffing" - Creating lots of small mods on separate pages and adding them to a mod list, meaning that each time the list is downloaded a significant amount of DP is generated. Generally, these files could all be on a single page (or bundled with the list) and represent almost no value to the game community outside of the mod list. This wasn't causing a major drain on DP going to other authors but we feel earning DP this way is simply not fair, appropriate or right and we want to stop it.
- Quid-pro-quo in mod lists - While less common, there were a few recorded instances of the curators of popular mod lists approaching mod authors and offering to include mods in the Collection/Wabbajack list/etc in exchange for a cut of the Donation Points from all the extra downloads it will generate. Similar to the above, this didn't have a huge impact on the overall DP pools but is not something that we feel is fair to others.
- Botnet farming - Using large numbers of throwaway accounts to generate a disproportionate amount of downloads on otherwise unpopular mods to generate more DP.
We hope you'll agree that none of these things benefit the community and that often these behaviours direct rewards away from other users who have not attempted to manipulate the system. It is not lost on us that this is very much a problem of our own making, which is what we are trying to rectify with these changes. We would also like to highlight that the users doing these things (usually) have no malicious intent and are within the rules of the current system - excluding the botnet issue, obviously.
As part of our efforts to combat these problems, we'll be updating the Donation Points system rules and changing how the system works to better reward users who make awesome content and share it in a great way for the community.
What is changing?
The most important change we're introducing is a new "under the hood" algorithm to calculate how Donation Points are allocated. Currently, we share how we work out mod author rewards each month but - while we generally prefer transparency - we feel that, in this case, showing our workings creates a rewards system that is easier to manipulate and encourages users to tailor their content to maximise Donation Points. With that in mind, we've decided to keep the details of the algorithm hidden going forward. We will also periodically tweak the formula to ensure the distribution remains fair and the most positive contributors to the community are being rewarded appropriately.
As a result of these changes, mod authors in the upper percentile of earners in the current system are likely to see a decrease in their Donation Points and many authors in the middle of the pack may see a small boost in what we give them. The metrics are different now so the exact variation will be unique from one user to the next. One thing we're confident in saying is that anyone who has been engaging in the behaviours we listed earlier will see a decrease in their overall earnings.
We won't be sharing the Donation Points monthly reports for the next few months, but these will return once we've completed the updates to the wallet section of the website required to display the new data.
Donation Points for January, February, and March 2024 will continue to use the old algorithm and you will receive the amounts shown in your Monthly Reports section. These will be added to your wallet in May, June, and July 2024 respectively (as normal).
The new algorithm applies to Donations Points earned from April 2024 onwards, with the first payout due in August 2024. Don't worry, there will be no change or delay to when the rewards hit your wallets.
We're also updating the Donation Points system rules to clarify what is considered abuse of the system and we'll be reaching out privately to the community members that this affects. Mod authors who don't play by the rules will risk having specific mods disqualified from earning points or, in extreme cases, their entire account may be disqualified from earning DP if our new guidelines and warnings are not followed.
What isn't changing?
We remain committed to donating as much as possible to mod authors each month. Our goal is to continue to increase the pool of funds as our site grows, allowing more authors to benefit from this system. We've already shared over $7.5 million in rewards since starting the scheme in 2018.
Since we changed how mod authors get free Premium, we're adding more game keys and exploring additional possibilities for funky extra rewards we can add to the store to let authors get even more our of their DP. If you've got some ideas, let us know on the forums or the feedback board.
We will continue to use the NET90 system - meaning your DP will be added to your wallet 90 days after the end of the month (for example, DP earned in January is calculated in February, then is added to your wallet in April).
How can I ensure I still get a good share of the DP?
Our advice for getting the most out of the new system can be simplified as saying "Make mods that are great for our community and we'll reward you". As authors, there shouldn't be any need to get bogged down in the mechanics of the system anymore. To give you an idea of the kind of behaviours we want to encourage though, here are some top tips:
- Create awesome mod pages - Provide users with a clear description of what your mod does, how to use it and what they can do if they have problems.
- Keep your mods updated - Users love it when they can quickly tell if your mod will work with their game version. Should you not have the time to update your mods, keep your fans informed by updating the mod page or sticky comments.
- Centralise your content - Don't make users browse through loads of mod pages to get to all your similar content. Consider batching together related content. You can still offer multiple individual files on a single page. This is particularly important for compatibility patches!
We know this isn't particularly specific, but that's the point.
I have more questions!
We understand this is a touchy subject and there are bound to be questions which aren't fully answered here. We've added a new Frequently Asked Questions page to cover these over the next few months as we prepare to roll out the new system.
Let us know your thoughts in the comments section below or send a PM to one of our Community Managers if you'd rather talk to us privately.
533 comments
An extreme lack of transparency is truly not.
Making mod authors wait THREE MONTHS to see the impact of these changes is just downright cruel.
If the ultimate goal is the best user experience, then Nexus should be helping mod authors push towards that goal. Hiding vital information behind the curtain and punishing MAs for misbehavior without any direct explanation will breed mistrust and push more MAs to put leave Nexus or put content behind patreon paywalls.
Nexus, you created an amazing site and and amazing system of sharing profits with content creators, like nothing else the gaming world has. In creating that wonderful fountain of sharing, you also built a system of dependency. Some of us have left our jobs or other responsibilities in order to invest significant portions of our lives to creating content for the community. We are incredibly grateful for the opportunity to be able to live that dream, but we also have a livelihood to be concerned about. Nexus should have the decency to share information about how it's going to impact us. People have homes and kids and bills to pay, and yet you drop this bomb almost two weeks AFTER the data for April should already be available. How are we supposed to trust in anything you say anymore, when the rug could be pulled out from under us at any moment? It's all well and good to assure us that this won't affect the timing of DP payouts, but if I don't know what my income is going to be in August then should I really be investing a couple hundred hours of my time over the next three months into creating mods for Nexus?
There are many reasons I have released them separately that have nothing to do with DPs:
-Combined mods make updates/fixes MUCH harder and can be really stressful
-Users get to pick and choose their own experience
-FOMOD is an amazing tool but tons of work and easy to break, and users outside of Bethesda games aren't familiar with it
I understand the reason for these changes to create a more equitable distribution of DPs. But without transparency on this hidden algorithm, how can I be motivated to change how I release my content? I could spend a bunch of time releasing an AIO of my Cyberpunk NPCs, as I've long thought about, but are my DPs already doomed because I released them all separately as well? If so, is it worth the time and effort in creation and management? I sure would like to know, but it seems I may never find out.
Nexus talks about it's role in the "modding community", but a community requires trust and communication. This action may have some of the right intentions, but the way it's being carried out... well it's nothing short of Fascism. It reeks of the mistakes that Bethesda has made and truly saddens me.
I invested over 1500 hours over seven months to make the third release of my mod, with the previous two releases taking about as long to make. Over the three years I've worked on the mod, I earned $30 in DP, which I never touched. The reason for such low DP is that my game is 17 years old, and thus no longer "hot". But this is what I choose to mod.
If you are worried about investing a few hundred hours over three months and not getting paid enough for it, you are not here for the same reasons as I.
Here's your mistake. Why would you ever do this? You trade stability and a hobby for something that could always have been taken away without warning. What were you going to do if nexus decided to ban your account for whatever reason without warning? To be quite honest, it's not nexus's fault that you would do something this stupid. This is not a job. Nexus is not your employer. They owe you nothing.
Diversity breeds creativity, and not of all of us have the privilege to invest hundreds of hours into content creation without concern for our livelihood.
Tell me you have no idea what you are talking about without saying you have no idea what you are talking about.
It is a job, whether you believe it or not. Modding is long-term employment for many people, and a gateway to careers in video game development. There are many MAs who create a lot of amazing content here as their primary income. Just because you don't understand someone's motivation doesn't mean they're stupid, it means you're ignorant.
There are a lot of MAs who create highly valued content on Nexus who live in countries where wages are far lower than in Europe or the US. Maybe someone has trouble finding employment because of a disability, or discrimination in the workforce. Making decisions based on such pressures is far from stupid, and basing income from a source that's more reliable than other options while also mentally nourishing can be truly brilliant.
I'm not saying that Nexus owes MAs transparency, I'm saying that a lack of transparency is cruel. If Nexus truly considers itself a part of the modding community and that it is working towards the benefit of the content creators that it profits from, then it should care about that.
Oh I understand the motivation. It's stupid motivation. It's the same idea as quitting your job to be a full time streamer on twitch or a youtuber or tiktoker or whatever other extremely haphazard content creation type of gig people try to do. It is not the platform's job to make this a career option. If you want a career on nexus, get a job with nexus. Otherwise accept the fact that your stupid decision to chase a living modding/curating collections is entirely at the whim of the platform you use.
Whether you deserve DP as a collection curator or not is a different discussion. It is 100% a stupid idea to think quitting your job and modding full-time is ever a good career move. Again, what would you do if nexus bans your account without warning - which they are fully allowed to do?
People literally don't think before they make rash decisions, and get mad when their decisions eventually can have negative consequences. It is not Nexus's job to ensure you have money to pay your bills and feed your family, unless you are employed by them, which you are not.
Another case of tell me you have no idea what you are talking about without saying you have no idea what you're talking about.
Not everybody works in as volatile an industry as "NexusMods Collection Curation"
You have 284 mods. Most of them are splits. Most of them are in collections.
Your cyberpunk collections are compiled entirely out of your split mods, 66 mods each. One has 22 thousand unique downloads, the other one has 18 thousand unique downloads. Not a single 3rd party mod so we can estimate how much you've earned only via collection, ignoring standalone split downloads.
22000 unique DLs * average DL to DP ratio of 3.1 = 68200 DP. That means each mod gets 68200 DP average, in total. 66 mods * 68200 = 4,092,000 DP = $4092
We can do the same with another cyberpunk collection compiled out of the same mods with lower res versions, but I don't know how unique downloads are counted across collections with the same mods, so I'll skip it.
Your skyrim collection "Next Gen Animals" have 25 of your split mods. Repeating same process as for cyberpunk, we conclude that it rewarded you with ~$542
Downloads of mods outside collections = unknown, I won't go counting each UDL, but for stuff that you have for Cyberpunk, they get into 50+ thousands. So we can safely assume that you get DP for standalone splits downloads at the same level as from your collections.
In other words, it's possible that in the past 12 months you've robbed nexus for many thousands of dollars, by gaming the system.
And you'd love to get more. But it ended today.
Damn, homie did the research and the math for the smackdown.
I am noticing it seems to be the most vocal people are the people who are directly abusing the DP system in the first place. Hmmmm.... wonder why they would be so upset. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
NexusMods is a business, they earn money by distributing mods made by other people.
But I don't know why for some reason I keep hearing the argument that modders should just work for free because we do this for fun.
There's nothing wrong in being compensated for our work, and there's nothing wrong in treating Nexus as a business.
This site would not exist if people weren't making mods, and thinking that getting paid is some sort of extra luxury and that Nexus "owes you nothing" is absolute nonsense and kinda irks me a bit.
A business that's not reliable is a bad business. People pay premium to get access to quality mods, to get guality mods you cannot just rely on the good heart of the people working for you, you have to offer those people something in return. It is the most basic concept ever.
I know you're used to get everything for free on the Internet, but don't blame modders for wanting to rely on a business - that's supposed to be stable seen the amount of $$ involved - to make some extra cash, you don't know what's our life, you don't know why we do what we do. For some of us, those few bucks really make a difference.
That's why we are concerned about having to wait 3 months to know what or even if we're getting paid.
Not having consideration for this will only drive modders away and reduce the quality of the resources available and the service offered.
If you can afford to work for free, good for you. You're lucky. Others are not, that's a very weird flex on your part.
BTW this doesn't mean that personally I'm here just for the $$ - I started modding because I wanted to improve my game, I wanted to learn new stuff, I struggled a lot to follow tutorials and learn scripting and everything and I always try to give back what I learn making tutorials of my own, all my mods are and will always be free.
But the DP are really a Godsend for me. I've been modding for 3 years, I've put countless hours into the CK, testing scripts, making NPCs, sculpting, texturing and everything, but I cannot afford to spend all that time if I don't have enough in return. When you need cash, you have to go do other work and then there's no more time for modding just for fun, so the amount of mods I could release if it was just a free funsie time would be very different, and this will be also a loss for the people that enjoy my stuff. I'm not the best modder, I don't do the most useful things, there are many others that deserve to be paid more than I do, but that doesn't mean that my effort is worth nothing, and the same goes for all other beautiful people that put their time and energy into these games.
1. I already brought this up in my comment. I acknowledged that I have a variety of mods that could be grouped together. I'm not saying any particular way to do things is better, I'm seeking transparency for all involved.
2.
3.
While I am not opposed to creating a mod with all NPCs as an AIO, and probably will do so eventually, having that AIO in the collection instead of having each one optional would generate errors for some users who use conflicting mods.
Thank you, very well said.
Again, the nexus owes you nothing. Does META owe you for your contributions to Instagram or Facebook? Should Reddit pay you out if you for posting or commenting on their site? Should Twitter pay out its users? They are all user-content driven sites as well, so clearly they should be paying out every single user that posts on their site and contributes to their content streams.
The idea that these businesses owe their users compensation is absolutely ridiculous.
Getting paid literally is an extra luxury. Nexus does not owe you anything. Should other sites that also host mods pay their users? Should Loverslab pay? mod.pub? Should Arthmoor pay his users that host on afkmods? What a ridiculous notion that because you are hosting your mods on their website, that they owe you money.
I really hate to play this role of the corporate bootlicker but damn you people with your entitlement make it incredibly difficult not to.
I strongly believe that many MA contributions are vastly under-compensated and I really want to see more equitable distributions. If that means I personally get less DPs as a result, that's fine. I just want to know in advance how it's going to affect me so that I can make appropriate decisions.
This whole situation happened because of a system that NEXUS created. They made the collections and the DP system as it was. They did not have the foresight to change the DP system prior to release of collections. As certain collections gained massively in popularity it allowed for opportunities for individuals to benefit from that system. I don't think you can blame anyone for taking advantage of that opportunity, but the real problem is that it made Nexus mistrust mod authors and collection curators for something that Nexus created. In turn, Nexus responds by creating a hidden algorithm and refusing to release data for three months, deepening that mistrust.
I know that I personally have benefited from the collections system and that having more of my mods split up instead of in AIOs has benefited me financially. I'm not arguing that we keep things how they were. I think AIOs are great, and with games like Skyrim it's often very easy to manage overwrites and use a combination of AIOs and single mods. With games like Cyberpunk, however, it's much more difficult to manage them; users cannot easily see what files are packed into an archive. So I will continue to release mods that others may say are "split" but really are separated in order to improve user experience. If Nexus wants to value those mods less, that's fine--just tell me how so that I can manage them accordingly.
Does having a bunch of single NPC mods in a collection reduce DPs on all my mods? If I release an AIO is it treated differently than a "split" mod in DP distro?
And if we look at your "mods" alone, we'll see that they exceed unique downloads of that collection at least 2 times. In other words, my point is still valid. Using collection is just a quick way to estimate lowest possible DP income without the need to check every single mod on its own. Very high chance is - if I did, I'd hit you with a very large sum of money you've got, maybe several times bigger than from collection alone.
Splits. If we start combining your mods, you will end up with very small amount of them, maybe less than 10. In total. Across all games. And maybe extra few that are some old mods of yours where you tried to be an actual author but it didn't work out. You would never in your lifetime earn as much as you did by splitting them. And there is no other reason to split those mods but to maximize DP income.
I never said all your skyrim mods are in collections. But the one collection you do have for skyrim - has 25 of them, stated that very clearly. ALL your 2077 mods are in collections, which I also stated clearly.
And stop this "can't be combined" nonsense. I'm looking at "your" stuff as we speak and it's "upscale" "optimize" "retexture" "cleaned". What stops you making a modpage "cleaned" or "upscale" with all the "very unique" files in the download section? Because that would hit your DP income into nothing. Can't do a lot with 2 mods innit? Out of 149 mods for SSE you have, 123 are "cleaned" [insert name].
I don't understand why you try to play with words and deception, while everyone can actually go and fact check every single word you say.
You also have tons of mods you blatantly ported, and you get DP from them, because original mod's perms were open (except DP). I wonder for how many of those you have permission to get DP, and just how much trouble you'd get into, if somebody started asking.
I spent hundreds of hours making mods and porting PC mods over to Xbox before I turned on DPs and started thinking about actually making any money doing this. I did it because I enjoy it, because my career of 25 years was sucking the life out of me, and because it helped my brain feel like I could contribute something people enjoyed.
Eventually DP payouts started being of some significance, and I started thinking about dedicating more of my life to this. I've been working hard for a year now to get out of my soul-sucking career and planning to make up the difference by investing more time to creating mod content.
I acknowledge that serving the modding community definitely means I should be putting out more AIO content, and that the old DP system discouraged me from doing so. To users who like my content--I apologize for my selfish motivations. Know that for months I've been looking forward to freeing up time from my career in order to dive deep into bug fixes and some AIOs--none of which would have any significant increase to my DPs. I've also spent about 300 hours on a Skyrim fixes and collection project that is still unreleased. Both of these efforts are supported by work that I've already done and mods that I have in collections. I'm not asking for things to continue as they were, just information so I can adjust the decisions I make about my time accordingly.
On the one hand, this change could be an opportunity to be a wakeup call for folks like me to create more content that benefits users instead of content that benefits ourselves, but with a massive lack of transparency I'm left asking not if I trust users to support my work, but if I trust Nexus' secret algorithm to support my work.
The lack of data for three months just feels so unnecessary and harmful. Without that, it would be a lot easier for me to just process this, think about, let go of the past and figure out a path forward. But that three month gap just feels like Nexus is holding our work hostage and exerting an unnecessary amount of power.
There's a dozen ways to fix this, ship multiple .archive files or .bsa/.esp file in an single download, have multiple downloads, it's not hard to have options for "Main Menu only, Splash screen only". Anyone who has ever setup a new mod page on the Nexus will tell you the time that takes is *much* higher than just uploading a new file and giving it a name.
As a great example, why do you have 200 mods, where many of them overhaul a single NPC? I remember back before collections I absolutely hated the RSI I'd get from mod authors doing this. I want all your mods...just put them in one download. Sure we have collections now, but IMO that just means the way DP is paid out needs to also catch up to the new meta. And sadly that new meta means that its way to easy for someone to use chaiNNer and ESRGAN models to rescale a NPC, upload each NPC as a separate upload and farm DP at the detrament of authors who spend hours to rework a single model in ZBrush.
You go to the supermarket to buy apples, the supermarket pays the farmers for the provided apples.
Mods are a bit of a grey area because you cannot sell them, but the site still found a way to monetize them. So why they can earn money and the providers of mods cannot?
And once again, Nexus is a business. They owe their users a good service because the users keep them afloat and some even pay for the premium service.
I personally don't feel entitled to anything, getting paid is an extra thing - again because of the modding gray area - but it should be the normal thing to happen in any other kind of business. You won't ask an artist to do you a portrait for free.
It's not an "official" job, because we don't have a contract or anything, and if they decided to stop paying us tomorrow, I'll sadly loose my 40 bucks a month and then move on. But it would be a terrible move on their part, because consistency and reliability are important for customers and users. Who does bad business loses customers.
Changing their policies is always a risk because you break people's trust and if you disappoint the people that earn you money, you lose said money.
Getting paid for your work is how the world goes by, on the contrary, nobody is entitled to anyone else's free labor (but we do things for free anyway or just for a few bucks and you still complain and call us entitled - the audacity - LOL).
The recent changes to the site/service have been a bit questionable and for sure have eroded the trust that many had in the Nexus business, and I'm sure that those that value their time will be a bit more reluctant in investing so much on this site if they keep doing these shenanigans and if we don't know what tomorrow will hold.
You *chose* to not do that.
So anyway, I would like to know how many people gave you an explicit permission to earn DP from their mods, where their mods clearly state that you cannot earn DP without their permission?
Yes, absolutely there are ways around releasing as singles, and the old DP system discouraged folks from doing so. I'm not arguing against a new DP system and I've admitted that I should be releasing more AIO content.
As a mod user, I like having individual options. I personally love Skyland and Skyking's work in general but I've really appreciate that he's doing more individual mods. I don't want to download gigabytes when I just want a few things. I think both should be available for users and I want Nexus to provide transparency about how they're treated. Maybe we'll get some of that in August, and I'm upset we're not getting that now.
And btw, the upscaling I do isn't as simple as just throwing some files into software, I spend time with each one individually. I didn't set out to release 60 NPC mods for Cyberpunk on some bulk scale. I released a few that I tackled and then people kept asking for more. Then after getting a bunch out I put them in a collection because it was easier to manage than one mod page. And I'm glad that I did it because there were a few mods that had issues which I had to go back and fix. Larger mods mean more time getting fixes done and longer upload times. I don't necessarily think I should be rewarded for parsing them out, but I shouldn't be punished either.
If time and money were not an issue whatsoever, I would still release individual mods and then later put them together as an AIO, because that's what works best for me and for those who download my content.
You are obviously just hunting for ways to attack me, so I'm not going to justify anything else you say with a response. BYYYEE.
As Nexus outlines here, if you make good content, you should have nothing to worry about.
although it doesn't matter, reported you anyway. Have fun. BYYYEE
You should be grateful that it was a cash cow for such a long time. On the bright side you can now spend some precious time working on actual mods while your computer is generating new textures.
Also, calling those new rules fascism is probably the most uneducated comment I read in the whole thread. You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you nor blame the Nexus for things only you are reponsible of. No one forced you to exploit the weaknesses of a system to get easy cash, not everyone was doing that and you should ask yourself why you did.
Knowing the amount of points I have before the 3 months is a thing that I need for my budgeting. (Yes, accounting for 100 extra dollars still matters to me, I don't live in America and I have chronic health issues).
I will stop modding only when I'm tired of it, don't have anymore time, or if they change the mod pages color scheme to be like the one of the new profile pages because I cannot read that and it would kill my eyes - that would be a funny reason for walking out of here - LOL
It's time for the site to kick the lazy "authors" out and prioritize effort and quality.
TIME TO LEARN OR GTFO
Oh no no no on no no no no no no no no
Edit: I hope the "one click optimizers" get nuked too, leeching from real mods is lame.
The jokes write themselves.
Respectfully, I find this opinion to be a pretty bad take. You're absolutely entitled to your own beliefs, but this is at the very least a false equivalency. For example, a casual user on Facebook is more akin to someone who downloads and comments on mods - not the one who makes them. Whereas a content page on Facebook is more in line with a mod author, and they are compensated by Meta in accordance with their success. Moreover, content production pages and many users that produce content on the social media pages you mention, as well as other content platforms like Tiktok, Instagram, and Youtube (which are much more apt comparisons to Nexus as they revolve around proper content and entertainment production/consumption) DO implement payment systems for their content creators. And they do so with the explicit aim of allowing their creators to work in content production as full-time/part-time jobs. And yes, content creators are absolutely entitled to compensation from such platforms.
For context, I've worked factory jobs, retail and fast-food, maintenance and janitorial work, and I've been a full-time student. I've also done the content creation thing for a good while now. I was born below the poverty line, and have teetered on either side of it my entire life. So that's the background I'm approaching this from. Pretty metropolitan, as I imagine a lot of people here are.
As a general rule, labor that other humans benefit from consensually is deserving of compensation (you are free to not accept compensation, but you DO deserve it regardless). This rule is a framework that all economic systems use as a baseline - capitalism, socialism, and communism - to an equal extent.
And when a business platform profits off of content they feature and raise awareness for, but did not create, I would argue that the only ethical economic conclusion is that the creators are entitled to compensation from them. Such platforms do deserve income because they provide a platform for creators, but they also benefit from the labor of those creators. Therefore, both entities are entitled to compensation, and the latter (the creator) is entitled to it from the former (the platform). The internet and the advent of social media platforms blurred the lines of any real economic infrastructure for a long time, but we are slowly entering an era where such organizations are forced to acknowledge this crucial rule-of-thumb, and are slowly shifting from the circa-2010s gig economics into something resembling a more traditional labor market, and that is a good thing. In my opinion, that is something everyone should want. So, in my opinion, Nexus absolutely does owe its mod authors compensation, and I believed that long before I actually began authoring mods.
That's just my two cents. Again, you're absolutely entitled to your view, but this just stands out to me as something that may need further evaluating.
*To clarify, I'm not trying to conflate Donation Points with income systems used by other content platforms. I understand that there is a difference. My only point is that we should want people paid for their labor. Apologies if that wasn't clear!*
Great news.
people talk about how nexus makes money off content we create, and that's unfair. setting aside the issue of free hosting and visibility, maybe it is. maybe copyright is theft! viva la revolution! but like, we still live in a world where copyright is, in fact, a thing that exists, and we are all here making fan content for something we don't own, usually without explicit permission (or where the explicit permission includes strict clauses about monetisation).
i don't personally judge any individual who is in a situation where they need money, whatever money they can get however they can get it. the world sucks. but as a community stance, "this is my job", is a position that - if it were mainstream - would attract a lot of dangerous, negative attention and possibly have a negative impact on the permissive relationship we currently have with many publishers. look to EA's crackdown on paid SIMS mods for a recent example. nexusmods is not your employer and they are under not moral or legal obligation to provide you with an income.
It's really obvious that you're just spamming mods to game the system when the effort involved in as low as humanly possible.
You don't even understand how the limit on texture resolution in cyberpunk 2077 works. You've posted mods that literally do not work because of that lack of knowledge, and assumedly... lack of testing.
You are part of the problem.
The legal grey area comment is true, but I don't think that the conclusion is correct. Nexus owes its content creators, just like Tiktok and Youtube and other content hosting platforms. But if there is to be a reckoning for mods operating in this grey area (not saying that there should be or that there is a legal precedent for it, just saying if there were to be such hypothetical allegations), Nexus would already be implicated. They have built their business model on benefitting from both the labor of mod authors, who build content based on the work of game developers. And they are transparent about that. Now, I don't know if Nexus pays out a portion of their income to Bethesda and other developers, but I would argue that THAT is the crux of the issue. Mod authors being paid developers is correct, making money off of the work of compensating both game developers and mod authors without compensating could possibly constitute a questionable practice. And if so, it would have been a questionable practice ever since Nexus started hosting ads.
You're absolutely correct to raise this concern, and you're concerns aren't unfounded. But mod authors being paid isn't the problem. The Donation Points system does seem designed - to an extent - to avoid the implications of compensating mod authors as employees. And this does feel by design, to some extent. And that definitely seems like the right call. But I do feel that if game developers and publishers were to, hypothetically, stop turning a blind eye to such a practice, there may be a chance they already have a fair argument on their hands for doing so.
But I also believe that legally, based on my own personal research at least, as long as no one is actually SELLING mods on an open market that isn't the game developer, most developers that are supportive of the modding ecosystem will continue to be fine with it. That is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Because mods are not economic products to be bought and sold - they cannot be, legally. So if Nexus started commissioning mods and starting development studios of mod authors then yeah, that could be very bad.
Again though, your concerns are absolutely valid. Modding exists in a very scary and unprecedented gray area.
Understandable opinion, I respect that. But there's one big flaw in your otherwise solid reasoning. DP is not a payment for content creation. Never was. Never will be. It's quite literally in the name itself. DONATION points. Just a little bonus nexus decided to give to the people, because they're cool (both people and nexus). Here's a quote from the original, very first DP news:
In other words, nexus donates to mod authors as a thank you. And before you say "but it's the same thing" - no it is not. You could interpret it that way, sure, but let me make another example:
Say I like your mods. And I decide to donate you, idk, few bucks. "Here's your $20, cool stuff! I love it!", and I do it via patreon monthly, or ko-fi/paypal one time donation. I'm not paying you for the content creation, I'm donating some money to you because I can and I like stuff you make.
If I suddenly stop donating (for whatever reasons) - will you start messaging me "Hey, where's my $20 dude? Uncool! Why did you stop paying me for content I create? Give it back!" Of course you won't. That wouldn't make sense. I can donate at my will, and as much money as I want. I can do it once, or I can do it every single day (if I'm really reach).
That's what nexus is doing. Just on a very large scale. And not once, but every single month. Donates to everyone. Voluntarily. Just because they can. Not because they have to (ie no legal nor even moral obligation).
Sure you can start saying "but clicks and ads and nexus feeds off of popularity of our mods" and so on and so forth. They did that before DP was a thing, and we were all cool and happy (or almost happy, design changes to the site == hell on earth). We had a platform for posting mods. And that was enough. Because we like making mods and needed a platform. If DP disappears tomorrow - most of us will stick around anyway, won't change much for us. No donations? Sad but oh well. I can't tell nexus "HEY WHERE'S MY MONEY?!" because they don't owe me s*!& to begin with.
Yet here we are, plenty of donations going around, only issue - a lot of self-proclaimed mega modders keep trying to break the system, game it, and grab as much money they don't deserve, as possible. And today that issue was addressed. That's why comments are full of them rn.
Again, I respect your point of view, but your interpretation of what DP is - that was wrong.
No, no, you're absolutely right about that. It wasn't my intent to make a case for DP as income or proof of employment, or to imply that they are a parallel to other monetization systems on other content hosting platforms. If that got lost in my proverbial sauce, that's my bad - I should have clarified. That comment wasn't specifically about Donation Points at all, but I can see how that may have gotten conflated. My point is specifically that I do absolutely believe mod authors and all other content creators deserve compensation for their work, and that others should want that as well. Not that DP is the answer or constitutes as much. I am aware that there is an explicit difference.
Again I probably should've clarified, since the overall parent topic of this conversation is Donation Points. I'll amend my comment just to be a bit clearer.
Thanks for clarification! Yep, I got totally wrong idea what you meant. But I'm a bit tired, fault could be on me.
I see now. And I agree. Would be nice, but isn't going to happen for modding.
I'm totally fine with the changes and the lack of transparency in the short term, personally. I'm by no means in the class of gifted MAs on Nexus, but I was frankly stunned (in a good way) when I saw the equivalent of $ being sent my way when the DP system was born (apparently in 2018). If it went away entirely, I would do nothing different :)
Nexus always has been one of my favorite websites on the internet since I discovered it in 2006. Thanks again, Robin!
Looks like these changes are here to stop exactly this.
A lot of people should probalby re-evaluate why we're making mods in the first place. Were the DP system to dissapear tomorrow, I don't see my motivation to create mods vanishing alongside it.
We've got folks creating SKSE mods, for example, and only getting a few thousand downloads - despite the effort involved to create, troubleshoot, support and update that content. In contrast, we have other folks uploading "performance tweaks" and AI-upscale retextures, and getting a ludicrous number of downloads (and I presume DP as well).
Something had to change, in my opinion. A lack of transparency is also probably needed, given the circumstances.
youtube broadly allows monetised livestreams and actual plays but generally speaking there are explicit fan content creation agreements that many games companies have that often have specific carve outs for this sort of activity. it often doesn't explicitly include modding.
here is an example of EA's fan content policy: https://help.ea.com/en-gb/help/faq/how-to-request-permission-for-ea-games-content/
you will see that it explicitly allows passive banner ads (i assume this is the basis on which nexus operates) and monetisation of liveplays via partner programs (with youtube and twitch given as examples), but excludes all other forms of monetisation. it also explicitly disallows mods with the exception of about two games where it gives some outlined guidance. mass effect legendary edition - the scene where i'm active - is not included. though we know, informally, as long as we keep it non-commercial, they are not going to come after us.
you are correct that most companies are either supportive of - or willing to turn a blind eye to - modding provided things aren't being sold. but that's a choice they are making. they absolutely have the legal right to shut down any kind of monetisation that they choose to. they don't generally, because it provides more benefits to them than problems. but as soon as that stops being true, or brings the game into disrepute (as started to happen with the paywalled mods for the Sims), that will change.
here's a quote from EA's fan content policy:
that's not just paywalling. that's making money from. that would include paid, but unpaywalled, commssions for instance. again, nexus makes money from passive banner ads, and DP are explicitly not payment. but based on this as an example, then yeah, mod authors getting paid for mods is absolutely the problem. EA's policy here is fairly representative of the other fan content policies i've seen (setting aside ecosystems built for paid modding such as bethesda has).
again i am not making a moral or ethical argument. i'm not arguing that nexus mods aren't profiting from free fan labour. they are and they're transparent about that. in exchange they offer free hosting, visibility, and potential rewards via the DP partnership programme. whether you consider that a fair exchange or not is absolutely an open question. you can absolutely argue that it demonstrates the assymetry of capitalism.
but my legal argument is that it's not true that mod authors are fine if they're not selling and paywalling stuff. the grey area is very grey. a fair use argument is extremely dicey (commercial usage would undercut the argument and you'd be up against a multibillion dollar corporation). so whatever we think of the changes outlined in this article, "think of the modders' livelihoods, people gave up their jobs to do this, how could you?" is a not a viable argument. though i suspect we agree there.
Yeah, I absolutely get what you mean when you express the differences between the ethical and the legal. I do think that it is important to support an ethical stance in the hopes of it becoming a legal precedent, or in hopes of creating the best possible outcome that finds a compromise between ethics and legality, however.
I think you're actually hitting on a really important thing we should all keep in mind these days, and that is that a lot of the legality of modding isn't conclusive yet - in that despite policy and preexisting terms, an overall precedent hasn't been concretely set in a court of law. And there are a lot of things that could happen in that regard. And not only do different developers and platforms have different content policies, but different countries may land on different ends of the spectrum when determining whether modding qualifies as copyright infringement. And we should all absolutely be both wary of that but also be eager to cement modding in a more concrete legal framework (I think the TTRPG space has a lot of great examples of supplemental markets and production licenses that would fit this predicament well, for example) so that authors can get paid, rather than approach the topic with trepidation. I think it would be beneficial for everyone to not have to compare and contrast with platforms like Youtube, but to have a clear, concise, and finalized definition of where modding fits in the spectrum of content creation legally.
I personally believe pushing the most ethical outcome is important even in matters of law, and therefore the ethical arguments matter just as much as the legal. Not only because ethics are the purported bases of laws, but also because, as I understand it, developers and publishers already have the right to put a stop to modding as we know it - they just choose not to excercise that right. In addition, I don't believe there is much of a precedent for what constitutes fair use in general. To the extent that in college we were explicitly taught as artists that fair use doesn't actually exist. So if the area is THAT gray, I feel as though we have much more to gain than we do to lose.
But your point that my argument is much more moral than legal is very fair. I also wouldn't want to explicitly make a legal argument here, because I am not a lawyer. And for what it's worth, I do believe that while pushing for there to finally be a legal and fair way for mod authors to be compensated for their work, I'm not saying Nexus should hire all of us and start sending us W2s in the mail. I respect that there HAS to be a system like DP that is explicitly based in donations and does not constitute compensation. And to be clear, I am grateful for the current DP system and the effort Nexus makes to pay mod authors. And I fully respect your stance on the subject. And you are absolutely correct, I agree with a lot of your points and viewpoints, even if we ultimately don't find ourselves at the same conclusion.
i think if you want to look to the TTRPG industry that's interesting in that the D&D open gaming license was explicitly an attempt to avoid having to litigate fair use because it was so messy and impossible. you can't copyright game rules, but the degree to which you could copyright the verbal formulation of game rules, and whether that allowed other games companies to publish source material for d&d (or any other game) without permission was the issue. there's a pretty clear argument that there are legal ways of doing this, but there were also successful lawsuits to prevent people from doing this. the open gaming license - in addition to being a way for the at-that-time-failing d&d brand to relaunch itself - was an offer of safety. an offer to people that they didn't have to have that argument. because no one wants to. because it's so messy/will be won by whoever has the most money.
i see fan license policies the same way, i suppose. perhaps one day they will become more commercially friendly if that's ever deemed to be in the financial interests of the company (the way it was in the financial interests of wizards of the coast to do so for D&D 3rd edition). but until it is, i don't think it will happen. because it's money, not ethics, that ultimately moves the needle.
I think those criticisms of the OGL, while valid, could be and are being addressed by further iteration, rather than symptomatic of a doomed concept. Licenses like the ORC and other open gaming licenses produced in the wake of the OGL Crisis, in my opinion, do have potential both for the TTRPG space and as possible frameworks for licensing for things like mods. I do think there could be a universe where, instead of content policies, developers that support modding could issue similar licenses for commercial use of their assets and development of unofficial add-on content within their games - which could be a viable and marketable alternative to something like Creations. Maybe it could even start with mod-able Indie titles, instead of AAA games. Where corporate greed is less of a concern.
In such a universe, the resolution I would like to see is one where mod authors could publish mods for free or using a "pay what you want" feature, and be free to earn passive income similar to other platform creators but with a license for safety and security - so we know the roof won't collapse over our heads and our mods. Which is how I feel even the free, hobbyist landscape of modding can be today.
Although maybe such concepts are a bit idealistic, I'll be the first to acknowledge it. But obviously we as an entire community get to talk about these concepts and push for the outcomes we all desire, so I think its good the discourse here has been so varied. If nothing else, there's a lot of strong and well thought out viewpoints in this comment section alone.
Apologies for butting in here, but I think the ethical is far more important than the legal. The former is something relatable as a human being (i.e, camaraderie, understanding, dialog), while the latter is fraught with the plasticity of monetary advantage/convenience (aka, legality, protection, aversion to change). The former persists through the ages and is always important and relatable, while the other is transient and exists as a means to some particular end ... and is often situational. If we all stick by a good sense of what is right (good for me and everyone I know of) and what is wrong (bad for someone I can fathom), then everything "just works" for the benefit of all. I believe it's really that simple.
I wish that it could be reduced so simply in an international community ostensibly governed by monetary compensation and competing international politics, but alas, we will quibble semantically without seeing the black and white of it all. I agree with both of you. Too bad more people in this world aren't connecting with this sort of dialog.
Cheers
As a mod author who spends literal months on my works, I hope that the new system will encourage me to do so more of the same.
Much luvv <3
You've released 18 mods in a single month (between Jan 24th and Feb 24th), and you have more of similar mod streaks before that for Hogwarts as well, come on xD
You do have some exceptionally good and unique mods though.
I mean, sure.. When I play a lot, I mod a lot. I'm not saying I dont have mods that took less time than others/were easy for me to make. Or that I dont have mods that are fairly similar in functionality. Only that, I hope the new system encourages modders like me, who are willing to spend a large amount of time on advanced systems, to do so more often.. As the way the system is atm certainly does encourage the release of mutliple smaller mods when possible..
But, compare my what, lets be generous and call it 60 mods in the past 2 years, to some other mod authors 3/4/500+ mods in the past 2/3 years... Clearly there is an issue with some folks putting the absolute minimal amount of work involved in 'creating a mod', or mass posting.. For whatever the reason might be; More DP, increased exposure, whatever other nonsense..
And yes, those people do put as little effort as possible, to get as much DP as possible. Everything for the money. If there was a way to force people to download more - they tried it and utilized it. Now they're very angry =D
@2077v2 I haven't shat on anyone but people who game the system for maximum DP and now are viciously seething at changes. I wonder how long till you part from modding forever. Probably after 3 months when new report comes in and you gained $10 instead of $1000+
As for me talking to Dekita, that's so weird that I "shat" at them, laughed in an obvious friendly manner, and made them a compliment. You're very bright 2077v2, very.
If you aren't happy in life go fix it don't a shi*t on other people to make yourself feel better.
(now that was condescending)
If you aren't happy with nexus ripping you a new one - go find a job, and don't a shi*t on other people to make yourself feel better.
Work is work. If you are doing it, then you are performing a service to some subset of the community. It doesn't matter how big it is or how popular it is (DP accounts for this, you can be certain), because it still might matter to said subset, however large or small. Particularly, if your mod has a 'good' Description and stands up to that. What else can I expect? If I get that^, I get to make a presumably 'good' decision for myself... me
(for this moment, let's not consider those that barrel ahead without reading Descriptions).
... Who are any of us to criticize the actual work on a mod without knowing exactly what's been put into it? It's potentially work that some subset of us would rather not do ourselves. Anyone willing to put in the effort to earn DP by providing something that benefits me is worthy of my consideration as such.
Mods deemed crappy by a large proportion of the population should see a statistically-significantly lower payout. That's a no-brainer.
If my personal judgement sucks, fear not: I will be assimilated through the generations to come... for better or worse.
As long as DP is always consistently, stubbornly driving to support demand of community subsets --such that each is relatively equal to the other proportionately-- I cannot argue.
OR
Are they saying you cant publish a patch for your mod or a update for you mod on another mod page. Meaning its not a rebuild/remastered version with a totally new name (usually because I made it also ESL and need to change the name in addition to the rebuild) of the mod rather its the base mod just a minor update or something but people are putting those in another mod. If this is the case I get it why are people like that.. BUT I do wonder how that impact other users that make patches for my mods and publish them on nexus. I always have said my mod do not require my permission to patch or make a update to you can do that and publish and earn 100% of the DP ... but im wondering if they will no longer get DP for it.
Plus I'd want people to actually see it and updates often fly under the radar.
In my case the mod is more or less rebuilt from scratch and would have a new name.
You should ask modderators and let me know via PM!
Yes, there's been a growing trend of releasing a mod then releasing updates and patches as completely separate pages. All by the same author!
If you release every minor update as if it's something brand new and special, then the algorithm is going to catch you at it.
Creating new pages for major upgrades is quite traditional and can be very beneficial to the mod users.
A major update that's basically a rewrite is probably fine. Worst case, you can talk to the site admins if it becomes an issue. I don't think they're going to hand out bans without warning for this sort of thing. At least, this is what I've gathered from discord chats with community managers.
They are aware of discoverability for older mods being an issue, although I have no idea what they have on the backburner to address this concern.
Also, TBF, there are some cases where a separate "patch hub" may be necessary. E.g., I make a mod that's CC by SA, so all green permissions, but I want to make a patch to support X mod that's got all red/orange permissions. A patch hub can keep permissions isolated and clear.
*presses one button*
Its funny because most of those individuals enjoy the praising in the comments and think they are actually good, GET REKT
The only thing I'm farming is salt.
*screeching sounds in the basement*
bro i work as a TA in a public school, my job is literally yelling at kids, and i make 41k a year. When you stop getting the nexusbux, start working in a middle school, we are desparate for more adults. this is a cry for help. it is a warzone in here.
Just in case, before one of em calls me an infantile idiot - yes I am, and I'm aware of it, that is my conscious choice of behavior.
Like just mentioned settlement blueprints spam. It existed many years before DP became a thing. Quality of some spammed mods is pretty high, with a lot of effort going into each. Annoying, but not malicious or gaming the system. And besides, one can always block certain tags or authors from showing up in the mods list.
They probably will get hit by current changes. I don't know anyone personally who makes/made BPs, so can't even ask how their DP stuff goes overall.
I personally don't mind the large scale cleaned/upscaled texture packs for vanilla/big mods. When they're released singularly for every single mod that's released, even if it's like a handful of textures that could be run through CAO in like 2 seconds... then it just feels shameless.
Modding is for the love of the game, the community, and the challenge. Not for money.