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Need help with ruling!
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“Interactions with you while you are transformed by the crown… [do not] reveal anything other than details about the creature you’re disguised as. You count as the chosen creature for the purposes of spells, traps, and other defenses that wouldn’t target the chosen creature.
…The only way to reveal your true nature while transformed by the crown is with a Wish spell.”
-V:EoR
Interactions with Kas while Kas is transformed into Mordenkainen do not reveal anything other than details about Mordenkainen. Kas counts as Mordenkainen for the purposes of spells that wouldn’t target Mordenkainen. Scrying on Kas is a spell that wouldn’t target Mordenkainen, thus Kas would count as Mordenkainen for the purposes of the scrying spell, and Kas could not be successfully scried. The scrying spell would fail.
A scrying spell targeting Kas while he is transformed into Mordenkainen would reveal Kas’s true nature if successful, and thus scrying cannot succeed, because scrying is not wish.
Scrying can only successfully target Kas if Kas is not transformed by the crown of lies.
Ok but if someone’s Scrys Kas is it just going to stop the spell like it fails even if he fails?
Nothing for Kas to fail. For the spells intent,Kas does not exist as far as Scrying is concerned while he wears the Crown of Lies. So the spell itself fails, fizzles out.
To be super pedantic, it’s successfully cast. The Range is “Self,” so the target is the caster. The caster just does not see or hear anyone for the 10 minute duration of its effect.
”Fizzles out” suggests something makes the spell end early, or fails to be cast.
practically, no difference. narratively…could end up accidentally sending the players on a wild goose chase, trying to find some anti-magic effect disrupting arcane spellcasting….
The scrying spell description has what I take to be a semantics issue.
The Range is “Self.” Thus the scrying spell’s target is the caster - for the duration, the caster gains the ability to see and hear the chosen creature or location. Unfortunately, the spell description refers to this chosen creature as “the target,” which I take to be a poor word choice, since “target” is the term referred to for spell targeting in the PHB, including all manner of associated rules, like being able to see the target, having a clear path between caster target, etc, which obviously are not relevant to scrying. If the chosen creature to observe were the spell’s target, the Range would not be “Self,” it would be “the same plane of existence as the caster,” per the spell description.
So here’s how it goes.
Wizard PC casts scrying on the only possible target within ”Range: Self”, which obviously is the caster. The casting is successful.
Wizard PC now has the ability to see and hear a creature of their choosing on the same plane of existence for the 10 minutes.
The Wizard chooses “Kas the Betrayer.”
If Kas is transformed by the crown of lies, the scrying spell cannot reveal Kas’s true nature, because “The only way to reveal [Kas’s] true nature is with a wish spell.” If on the same plane, Kas could be required to roll a saving throw. If he succeeds, the caster can’t see or hear him. If he fails… whatever happens cannot reveal his true nature, because the crown of lies prevents that. I can’t think of many situations where seeing or hearing the transformed wearer doesn’t reveal their true nature, specifically or in general, so… proceed with caution. RAI, “you see and hear no one” is your best bet - the intention here clearly is “wish or bust.” The crown is a means of “forcing a surprise twist.” The players aren’t being screwed by the DM if the DM adjudicates in a way that insures they play the adventure that they all wanted to play in the first place, especially when the RAW/RAI appear to support that adjudication.
Furthermore, the description suggests the wearer cannot be the object of the scrying caster‘s sight or hearing while transformed, because the scrying spell, figuratively speaking, “looks for Kas, but finds no Kas“ - it wouldn’t show the caster ”fake Mordenkainen,” because a scrying spell disregards all creatures who are not Kas, and the crown makes the scrying spell think Kas is “not Kas.” No save is rolled, because the spell does not find the requested creature.
Oh I see now. Ok thanks for clearing that up. This item has some really vague wording and I didn’t think that counted for revealing. Apologies for any misdirection.
Scrying on Kas would result in a ‘target not found’ or ‘Kas is not online’ pretty much
Dude gave the right answer above already but I keep seeing others.
He’s asking about scrying on “Kas.”
Spell is successfully cast upon the caster (Range: Self), and lasts 10 minutes, but the caster sees/hears no one.
It would not, because of restrictions noted in the crown of lies description. See my reply.
They didn’t address it so it’s up to your ruling. But by RAW yes scrying still work and they would see Kas as Mordenkainen. The Crown states that you count as the chosen creature you are disguised as. It doesn’t remove your old identity and the Crown also states that you retain your own game statistics. That includes your name for the purpose of those spells. Hope this helped!
Thank you so much!!
This is incorrect.. They did address it. RAW, per V:EoR, the crown prevents anything except wish from revealing the wearer’s true identity.
Scrying wouldn’t reveal the identity, it would just show them Mordenkainen. I don’t think that’s revealing anything.
This is false.
“You count as the chosen creature for the purposes of spells, traps, and other defenses that wouldn’t target the chosen creature.”
ie: Kas counts as Mordenkainen for the purposes of spells that wouldn’t target Mordenkainen. A scrying spell targeting Kas obviously wouldn’t target Mordenkainen, thus for the purposes of scrying spells targeting Kas, Kas counts as Mordenkainen instead.
Furthermore, “The only way to reveal [Kas’s] true nature while transformed by the crown is with a Wish spell.” A scrying spell that successfully targets Kas while he is transformed by the crown of lies would reveal Kas’s true nature, and thus it cannot succeed, because scrying is not wish.
I would agree with this here. Attempting to scry on Kas while he's actively transformed by the crown would just return the result that he's not there same as if he was hidden by a nondetection spell. I honestly can't imagine very many scenarios where this would come up cause if Mordy-Kas is found out he's unlikely to keep going with the charade.
But I would just look at it as Kas is under a nondection spell while he's disguised and count as the real version of his disguise target if divined upon.