In terms of story, do you sometimes feel like good people should suffer? Have you ever done that?

Exactly. People start to tune out if it becomes obvious the characters are all either a) going to randomly die at any second, or b) Experience an endless conga line of misery and despair for the rest of all time. Tv tropes call it "Too Bleak, Stopped Caring".

Jobhob said:

I really regret doing that post now, to be honest, it was a bad day. And it doesn't even matters, because I'm making a simple game that doesn't take itself seriously, so it's mostly just cartoonish violence with some sub-themes laying in visual storytelling and way how character act.

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Well, that's OK not every game.Has to be super serious super dark and be so completely complex, You can make a childish edgy game.

And pretty please ignore all those rude comments that are quick to paint your character in such a terrible light. You're simply just asking questions. There is no malicious intense In where you were asking and for them to paint you in such an ugly light; Paint themselves as well. Remember you don't have to wait around to be harassed to block people.

Lionbarrel said:

And pretty please ignore all those rude comments that are quick to paint your character in such a terrible light. You're simply just asking questions. There is no malicious intense In where you were asking and for them to paint you in such an ugly light; Paint themselves as well. Remember you don't have to wait around to be harassed to block people.

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When you post disturbing things, you're going to get a reaction like this.

To Jobhob's credit, he did say he was having a bad day after the fact, and edited his post. I get that. I don't hold anything against him. I've certainly posted stuff that I regret/am not proud of.

But calling people's reactions "rude" and "harrasment", nah man.

Lionbarrel said:

And pretty please ignore all those rude comments that are quick to paint your character in such a terrible light. You're simply just asking questions. There is no malicious intense In where you were asking and for them to paint you in such an ugly light; Paint themselves as well. Remember you don't have to wait around to be harassed to block people.

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Yes, hello, I'm one of those "rude" people. I do not think what I said was unjustified, even if it was harsh. Because it genuinely read to me, especially with all the other posts at the time, that the guy was some kind of raving lunatic using RPG Maker as a vehicle to show off his nihilism/sadistic tendencies, and I'm always appalled by that kind of behavior since I find it pathetic.

Now, since Job said that he regrets what he said and that it was because he had a bad day, I'm willing to apologize and roll back my accusations. But this kind of language you're using pisses me off just as much, since the guy is a grown adult and doesn't need someone to defend him from "bullies".

It comes off as patronizing to everyone involved.

Lionbarrel said:

And pretty please ignore all those rude comments that are quick to paint your character in such a terrible light. You're simply just asking questions. There is no malicious intense In where you were asking and for them to paint you in such an ugly light; Paint themselves as well. Remember you don't have to wait around to be harassed to block people.

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I'm going to attempt to be decently kind to you since you don't appear to be saying this out of ill-intent. However...

As the forums' Resident A-Hole, I'd like to share with you something:

You tend to get out of people what you put into them. If you say something potentially infuriating to someone, that's the energy you're going to get back from them. Whether that's right or wrong doesn't really matter. That's just how it works. Most people, when offended, offend back. And, let's face it, most people hit "post" and don't really think about or care about how what they said comes off to anyone. For better or worse.

With that said:

I think almost everyone online has been "painted in an ugly light" at some point or other. Justified or not. If you can't handle that happening... then you shouldn't be online. Heck, that sort of thing happens in real life, too. Just from personal experience here in these forums I can count on one hand the amount of times I've received backlash and felt I'd deserved it. Does that mean I was right in those instances where I didn't think I deserved the backlash? Well, if nobody but me agrees that's the case, then... probably not.

The world doesn't run on "truth" and "facts". It tends to run on "how you made me feel", which is a great shame. Even your post here points that out. You are openly advocating for "don't listen to people who make you feel bad", and "don't wait to be harassed to block people". You're promoting a very closed-minded point of view. A point of view that leads to echo chambers. One where you block and ignore anyone who doesn't agree with you, which will make you insular.

You know what the smartest and most mature thing anyone can ever do is?

Just accept that not everyone is going to like you, agree with you, or agree to stand aside while you espouse your beliefs.

To get deeper into reality:

1. If you don't want to deal with people who vehemently disagree with you, then you probably shouldn't participate in "public discourse". That is... stay off of forums and chat rooms and game lobbies. These are places for people who think and act like adults. People who can handle criticism. If you cannot handle criticism... then you are better off leaving the spaces to the people who can.

2. If you disclose your points of view and thoughts to another person or in public, then you need to expect them to be scrutinized. For better or worse. This is why PR Teams exist. It's why HR exists at your job (HR is NOT to protect employees, it is to protect THE BUSINESS. HR is NOT your friend!).

3. If you are wrong, or feel you came across poorly and didn't mean to, then you simply apologize. That's typically all you need to do (provided you aren't dealing with internet mobs who deal in cancel culture... you can't please those people since they are literally bullies and thrive on your weakness). Nothing more usually needs said. There is nothing wrong with admitting you were at fault. All it hurts is your own pride. If you're too prideful to admit you were wrong, then you're probably not bright enough to learn from mistakes, either.
---
As for me personally:

Eh, I always get a chuckle out of people who have to "block" others. In my entire history online, 20+ years, I have blocked exactly two people. One of which was an ex girlfriend who didn't like hearing "no". About anything. The other was on some forums somewhere and they had taken to literally following me into every topic I replied to just to specifically disagree with me and fling incendiary things at me (attempting to get me banned for retaliating against them).

Otherwise, I've never blocked anyone. Never felt the need to.

It's easier to just "don't feed the trolls". I can control who I interact with and reply to. I can control which posts I read without blocking.

So, I find it funny when people block others. I always have to personally wonder "why are you such a weak and cowardly person and how do you get through life?"

But, that's my personal opinion. It only matters to me... and anyone who values what I think. Which... probably not many.

I don't mind characters going through a lot of turmoil, as long as it either serves to enhance their character arc to where they become stronger because of it, or their death/actions lead to other characters taking on that arc instead. I'm not a fan of things like Edgerunners

First good example of this that pops into my mind is Naruto. Dude has a hell of a life. He uses it as fuel to become stronger. He fails sometimes. He picks himself back up and continues going with what he believes to be right, and it is generally aligned with what the viewer believes too. It gives you someone to root for and makes them relatable, while also instilling hope in the viewer that they too can become stronger despite their hardships and limitations.

Contrast that to David from Edgerunners who

Not that I don't think that cruel stories don't have their place. I just really don't tend to enjoy that sort of thing and I don't think it is done well most of the time. Even something like Kingdom Hearts got on my nerve with the third entry. Sora's gone through hell and back man, let the guy rest already.

Prescott said:

Even something like Kingdom Hearts got on my nerve with the third entry. Sora's gone through hell and back man, let the guy rest already.

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Dude, Sora didn't have it near as bad as Terra or Aqua. Besides, KH3 ended pleasantly for everyone else, plus Sora isn't dead or anything.

TRIDIUM said:

When you post disturbing things, you're going to get a reaction like this.

But calling people's reactions "rude" and "harrasment", nah man.

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Girlie does have to stress that, I've only saw like 2 people said something along the lines of "that's disturbing". Didn't see many more people had the same opinion. Secondly, I'm familiar of doomers and follows suit thinking they're common enough to believe that most of you are over reacting. As long as that's homie hasn't re-edited his a original posting.I didn't think he said anything nutty; it was kind of typical teenage phase sad boy hour. Not all by deep suffering kind of shabil.

RCXGaming said:

It comes off as patronizing to everyone involved.

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Not only that, you came in with no actual advice on what they're was asking; This genre of media is clearly not your cup of tea and you came here pointing fingers, judging.

Just because you can't tell that you're talking to somebody. Young or new to game creation doesn't it mean no one else can.

Tai_MT said:

I'm going to attempt to be decently kind to you since you don't appear to be saying this out of ill-intent. However...

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Please don't fall off of your high horse, it will be fatal. I am absolutely not going to read that or give off the illusion that I read it. Continue to think the worst of me and refrain from talking to me.

@ATT_Turan
Nooo, you said nothing wrong; don't be sad with me!!

Lionbarrel said:

Not only that, you came in with no actual advice on what they're was asking; This genre of media is clearly not your cup of tea and you came here pointing fingers, judging.

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1. No advice was really sought. People were questioned on what they do, and he did provide an answer.

2. When no one else found anything wrong with everything said in this thread, you piping up weeks later reeks of wanting to start drama for no real reason. That's decidedly uncool, and makes you look bad.

If you read the original post, before the edit, you would realize why I said what I said. I still stand by it, and I don't see why your defending this. Is this really the hill you want to die on? Defending a statement that included the phrase "it's just feels right when harm is done to innocent"?

Lionbarrel said:

Not only that, you came in with no actual advice on what they're was asking; This genre of media is clearly not your cup of tea and you came here pointing fingers, judging.

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Yes, yes he did.

RCXGaming said:

REAL ANSWER TO THREAD:

I like to put my characters through the wringer, but I don't like pushing it to the point where it makes the story bleak. I want hope and despair to exist in equal halves so the reader/player/whoever can still find a reason to keep going.

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TRIDIUM said:

If you read the original post, before the edit, you would realize why I said what I said. I still stand by it, and I don't see why your defending this. Is this really the hill you want to die on? Defending a statement that included the phrase "it's just feels right when harm is done to innocent"?

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I don't feel like I was really looking into it that harshly, not on the level of dying on the hill of it. But more like I thought everyone else knows.This was like a young person being edging.
If homie isn't really directing his anger at a specific group or people it's usually harmless.
It is super Rare for anyone to finish a game, let alone be further than the story. Op didn't seem like they had a complete thought of an idea yet

And sorry @RCXGaming
I really did not remember that part...

I'm a fail girl at heart.

@Sword_of_Dusk
Bold for you to assume that I would have checked the date when of the posted. I really just responded to anything I saw close to recent.

I can't be clinically online and a heavy thinker. Girlie gotta choose.

Lionbarrel said:

I don't feel like I was really looking into it that harshly, not on the level of dying on the hill of it. But more like I thought everyone else knows.This was like a young person being edging.
If homie isn't really directing his anger at a specific group or people it's usually harmless.
It is super Rare for anyone to finish a game, let alone be further than the story. Op didn't seem like they had a complete thought of an idea yet

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I'm not even sure what this supposed to mean.

First off, the term is "edgy". Edging is something else that I can't quite say on this forum.

I'm not a fan of excuses like "boys will be boys" or "they're young! They'll grow out of it".

Just because you're young and edgy doesn't excuse behavior like that.
And him actually finishing the game is completely irrelevant.

I could propose a really f*cked up idea to the community with no intention of finishing it, but I would still deserve a reaction. That's not how it works.

But that's all I have to say. I think it's unfair to Jobnob because he already apologized/explained himself. No need to keep stirring the pot. If you want to think I was rude, be my guest.

I don’t know if @Jobhob ’s regret in the thread is “shall I close it?” regret.
But, either way. The thread does have a topic.

I actually have no idea how this thread resurfaced, but I actually don't hold anything against anyone. And well, it's fair that person who created a thread asking about wether good people suffering is cool can seem like they got some problems. Wording was all over the place too, because it's isn't as bad as it sounds.
The reason I even made this post is because of one scene, where you can sway shy girl who had sorta tough life and recently had her cat die into joining punk cult group, which gives her more backbone, but she also becomes zealous and agressive at times. It is pretty bad solution to a problem, and MC1 disapproves it, while MC2 did that because he wants to get along with said cult. It is optional, but I still was unsure about how do I approach stuff like that in a future.
Now I'm pretty sure it's not an issue, because game is pretty light-hearted and treats everything the same way, so it probably can't really disturb anyone.
I'm not a fan of getting into details about the game, because most of the time it's pretty redundant, but I hope it makes the whole situation more clear. Take care.

Have I ever suffered? Yes

If there was no harm done to innocent characters, there wouldn't be a need for a hero. There is no happy end, if there was never any misery before the happiness. Suffering is part of any story. Well, maybe not the teletubbies, but after that: Every story. You cant beat cancer, without getting cancer. You can defeat a crime lord, without crime. You can't save the world from an alien invasion, without bloodthirsty aliens. Even kids stories (I'd say Hansel und Grettel, Red Riding Hood, Snow White, Cinderella, etc etc) all have some degree of suffering.

However... How do they suffer, how much do they suffer and how do you as a developer deal with that? That is the difference between making an adventure, a drama, a thriller or straight up horror.

Tai_MT said:

You have to be quite careful with a world where "anyone can die". After a certain point, the deaths become predictable and desensitizing. Not just that, but after a certain point, there isn't any reason to get invested in anyone. If your favorite character can die in the next 5 minutes, then what is the investment in the experience if that character dies? Or, worse, what's the point of getting invested in ANYONE in the cast if they could all die at any point for really any reason?

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I don't think that is nessecarily true. If I just look at the 2 of the largest franchises of open world games (Elder Scrolls and Fallout), then I see that (almost) all characters can die, if you want. It is even up to you, the player, to prevent this. Sometimes you lose a character and you can't prevent it, but even after 1000's and 1000's of hours of gameplay, only a few friendly characters would actually die.

Just the fact that they CAN die, doesn't mean they all have to die. But the fact that they can die, makes that the player has to be more careful about their playtroughs.

It can even turn a game into something totally macabre, like... What is the main character is abducted with 49 other characters. They all have to do terrible puzzles to escape, but after every test, the abductee with the lowest score dies painfully. Every character can die in a horrific story like this, but this doesn't mean you won't get a bond with other characters. I even think it strengthens that bond. If you start with a NPC you like, you are more likely to protect it during your journey to the finals, and it will burn extra hard when they finally die. Specially if you can protect them all the way up to the finals, where it is you or them.

define "good" and define "suffering"
if by "good" you mean the goody-two-shoes character who lives life like Ned Flanders, then yes, the more suffering the better.
and by suffering, in context, I mean probably making him witness the burning of a Bible, page by page.
Flanders, while good-willed himself, tends to be exceedingly naive... and it doesn't matter how much you pray for salvation, if it won't come no matter how hard you pray, *MAYBE* try and pull your weight out of it? I don't know, for a change?
not-doing that for the sake of whatever hope, IS what deserves the suffering: the character chooses to not-solve their problems, so GIVE them the suffering, extra.

turn it to the other side of the argument, and you have the monologue by Mirror Kira in DS9's "Shattered Mirror": "Violence is a precision instrument. It's a scalpel, not a club."
...and, if all you have is a Zod of a club to be smashed against a Superman, you get the payback with interests in the form of a very pissed-off Batman, in a totally separate movie.
that's how violent the fight was, that it crossed over to the neighboring city, where lots of people were hurt, when Zod just wanted to hit Superman.

I don't think I've ever seen someone hate ned flanders so much.

No one should want anyone else to suffer. Suffer is a very strong word.

Suffering and pain exist. It's going to happen to characters and people. But it's never a good thing.

I will say, there are times where it might feel justified when the big bad villian finally gets what he deserves, but it's not something you should wish upon people, real or fictional.

I haven't seen a whole lot of the simpsons, but Ned Flanders does not deserve suffering for being naïve at times. He's imperfect, like everyone to ever exist in the history of the world.

JohnDoeNews said:

If there was no harm done to innocent characters, there wouldn't be a need for a hero.

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Uh, no. If the right person learns of a villain's plans and decides to try and stop it, you suddenly have your hero and no one has been hurt yet. The goal is to keep people from being hurt. Heroes can be proactive instead of reactive.