'Are you serious?': Richard Ashcroft on his big Wigan homecoming, hermit life... and the state of pies

I'm reaching the end of an entertaining catch-up with Richard Ashcroft about his BIG Wigan homecoming gigs this summer, when things are about to get controversial. I've asked him about pies.

Or, specifically, to name his favourite Wigan pie maker. "There's two," he says.

"When we [The Verve] did Haigh Hall, Poole's Pies did it, they're the oldest in Wigan."

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So are they one of your favourites, I ask? "I can't say," he says with an unexpected air of intrigue. "I've got two favourites but I'm not saying."

Even Richard's wife, also in the room, can't understand the secrecy at this point and interjects: "Why can't you just say?" But Richard is unmoved: "No I can't," he chuckles. "Put it this way, they're all good."

It's rather surreal to be in a room talking about (arguably) Wigan's two finest exports - pies and Ashcroft - in the same breath. But now I've got him on the pastry topic, he's really got a bee in his bucket hat about it all.

"Look I think it's a crime," he starts, "When I first left Wigan, I wanted to take Wigan national, because people didn't understand that [pies] was a ritual - every lunchtime, every dinnertime, they were packed with people eating pasties and pies.

"No one would believe me.... until Greggs took over. This was about 20 years ago but no one was having it, they were like 'nah it's not going to happen'.

"And now I'm like are you serious? Have you seen how many sausage rolls we're all eating now?"

If life had taken a different turn, you get the feeling I could be talking to Ashcroft the pie pioneer right now.

But instead, we're up in the lofty heights of Manchester's 20 Stories bar to talk about his two huge homecoming shows at Wigan's Robin Park on July 20 and 21.

These gigs have been some 20 years in the planning for the music icon and it's clear to see they really mean a lot to him. He says he had looked into the possibility of staging a gig at Wigan Athletic's football stadium years ago - and was shocked to discover it wouldn't be possible.

The last time he played in his hometown, it was the monumental night at Haigh Hall with the Verve back in May 1998.

He says: "I've tried to do this for years now, I just couldn't believe that the football club wasn't designed in a way that a gig of that size could be put in and out which I couldn't believe.

"So I left it again for another few years, but then I posed the question again and started asking about other venues. I kind of forgot that the rugby stadium is not that old and they said 'yeah it is physically possible'.

"I didn't want to repeat Haigh Hall because that was done with the band, it was a different time, it would be difficult to pull that off again - you'd need almost Glastonbury style planning and security."

Recalling that iconic night 26 years ago he laughs: "About 10,000 lads got on free and burst into the bar area! So there's loads of logistical and personal reasons why I didn't want to repeat that."

And so plans began to swing into place to play Robin Park in Wigan - initially for one night in July, but demand from fans swiftly turned that into two nights on July 20 and 21.

Since then, more nights have been added around it with other artists to bring a mini festival vibe to Wigan, in what could be a huge week for the town. That's what Richard very much hopes too.

He says: "So originally it was one night, then it turned into two and then to make it viable for the club it's turned into five nights there. That got me thinking that this is turning into something, economically for the town, it could start the idea that that town, that area, could we do that again next year?

"Not necessarily me, but could there be another four or five nights? Could the council pay for the smaller bands, the younger bands that play in different venues, can they start thinking about it.

"Because having done festivals all around Europe you'd be surprised how certain towns they'll build their year around that week because it means so much economically to the town. The impact it has on that area, once you've proven that it's possible, it's profound.

"I know it was the same for me, when I was a young lad seeing the Stone Roses in Manchester, it gives you hope that potentially you can do the same thing. It opens your mind to possibilities, not even just in music.

"It's very easy in life to forget you can take hold of your reins and go in a different direction to whatever people's preconceived ideas of you are - that could be your friends, your family, culture in general. You went to that school so that's your glass ceiling. So for me, when I was young, seeing people that I had an affinity with made it more real. Even though I put them on a pretty big pedestal.

"But looking back, from seeing the Stone Roses in 88, 89... I had the first album out with the Verve only three years later. It had that profound and quick effect on my life."

While The Verve were formed in Wigan back in 1990, they truly cemented their place in the rock 'n' roll hall of fame with 1997's Urban Hymns with iconic tracks like Bittersweet Symphony, Lucky Man, Sonnet and The Drugs Don't Work.

But there had long been turmoil in the band, who had split and reunited two times before their final split in 2009. All sides have said the prospect of another reunion is "unlikely".

Richard has continued his musical legacy with his own solo career, and retains that unmistakable frontman swagger. Noel Gallagher famously hailed him "Captain Rock" and the Oasis classic Cast No Shadow was written in his honour.

When he talks about the "possibilities" putting on gigs like the Wigan dates give to young people, he muses: "I predicted that I'd be in one of the biggest bands in the world and I was. I predicted that my music would do what it did, and it did. So you start to think it's possible."

He regales me with a story about his early years in Wigan, when he held misplaced confidence at his first job at the local swimming baths. But he knew he was destined for bigger things.

He says: "I understand what it's like. I did work experience turning up with my trunks at Wigan Baths thinking I was going to be a lifeguard, but I ended up cleaning the toilets. The people there called me Shakespeare 'cos I kept using all these mad words.

"I got nothing against anything, but I'm not having my destiny chosen by anyone. Other people and their actions and their moves the way they did things really inspired me.

"Our ceilings are set very low. When I was at school I felt like no one had faith, the first people I told I was going to be a musician they just laughed, they thought it was funny. It takes people like me, and the band, and all the people I've mentioned, the Roses, the Mondays, they make it less of a fairytale, there's more real potential. It's not to say all the bands are going to do well, but at least you tried.

"That's why these gigs can be more than just gigs for Wigan. It's been 20 years waiting for a venue that can put this on."

Richard was born in Billinge and grew up in Wigan, before leaving the town pretty much for good around 1996, just before Urban Hymns was set to explode the band into a new level of fame.

He says: "If someone says where am I from I say "Wigan" but they don't know where I'm talking about, especially when I'm in America, so I say "near Manchester". There are things that I miss, but I think you've got to get out there and make it happen and life can take a different path."

He admits "it would have been tough being at home" when Urban Hymns first came out. saying: "It would have been hard going down the pub and living with that.

"That's what happens. That's why people move, it's not an indictment of where you're from, it's that cliché of "he's buying rounds in the pub, he's showing off" or "he's not buying rounds he's a miser" - it's a cliché but I think that's true.

"But I'm always a moving on kind of person, I like moving, I like change. I would have done that whether I was famous or not. But there was pressures that came with that and It was probably better becoming a bit of a hermit."

Does he feel like a hermit now? "To some extent yeah, a little bit," he says. "But I've always been a little bit like that. I'm great performing and I like being around people, but there are a lot of things that come with "first fame" as the Bee Gees called it.

"If you can survive that then you're alright for the rest of your career. When things happen for the first time it brings a lot of things into your existence that weren't there anymore.

"So if you're lucky enough to buy a house with a bit of a wood and a garden and a few dogs, that can be your solace you know? Because ultimately if you're coming back off a tour from meeting thousands of people every day, it's a very unnatural state to be in.

"So the calmer, the more relaxing the place you can find the better, other people like to be in cities but I like the peace and the quiet. You've got to find your spot in life where you can exist in the most "normalish" life, it's the gift and the curse of being successful."

I mention that when Liam Gallagher was interviewed by the MEN recently, he told of how he no longer goes to Manchester City games because it's "too crazy". It's something Richard, a lifelong Manchester United fan, says he can relate to.

"Some of the places that you'd love to stroll around, or like the match it's the same with me I don't go to United anymore because it's literally full on. Maybe if the roles were reversed and I saw someone I really admired back in the bar I'd be like 'oh hi do you mind?' You get some really nice pleasant people with etiquette and social skills, but then you get people who just dont care, they're just fixated on getting their moment, their piece of whatever.

"Back in the mid-90s I could tell if someone was going to say summat just from the cut of their corduroys. If they had a pair of semi-flared cords on and a pair of Adidas on I knew that we might have a chat. But then if you're in a hotel in Glasgow and a hen party just consumes you with crazy fervour, but everyone has stepped back 'cos I'm the face, and they're finding it funny, I'm like 'wow, you sacrifice a hell of a lot to be the d***head at the front, the face'.

"But that's all right because I can't complain. I'm not picking up trash off motorways every morning, I don't wake up every morning working for a boss I hate. It's a small price to pay, but it definitely limits you on the things you might want to enjoy doing."

He goes on to muse: "Some things leave such an impression that you'll never escape. Mick Jagger is never going to escape his fame is he? It's never going to be that he walks down the street and no one cares. Even if he retired 40 years ago that still wouldn't change."

Richard has nothing but good words to say about Mick Jagger and Keith Richards during our chat. The Rolling Stones' lawyers and Ashcroft were involved in a copyright battle over the use of music in Bittersweet Symphony in the late 1990s. But it was Jagger and Richards who ultimately agreed to return the Bittersweet royalties and songwriting credits to Ashcroft.

He memorably played ahead of the Rolling Stones at Old Trafford in 2018 (a venue the lifelong Red naturally says he would "LOVE" to play again in future.)

He says: "It was up to Mick and Keith, they were the pivotal thing in me getting Bittersweet back, and I'll always thank them for that. Through that, I got an insight into the difficulties they've had over the years with their songs and their publishing and yeah no wonder they tour a lot. We were all mindblown by Mick's performance at Old Trafford - as a performer he goes down as the greatest rock 'n' roll frontman in history."

Looking out across the skyline of Manchester during our chat, Richard remarks how much the city has changed. "30 years ago no one would have dreamed we'd be sat up 20 stories sipping a glass of wine I mean come on, you'd be lucky if you could sip a cappuccino outside."

Ahead of the interview, I've been asked not to ask about Co-op Live during the chat - so I mention this to Richard. "Oh yeah, don't talk about the behemoth," he chuckles.

But he's pretty diplomatic on what he thinks the £365mn new venue will ultimately bring to the city once it opens. He says: "This city has always attracted the big artists, so obvioulsy if you've got a tailor-made big arena, you're going to attract huge artists.

"What that means for the local economy, that's a postiive thing. But if we get to a point where it compromises the smaller venues and how they run and oeprate then that's different. We don't know how it's going to turn out.

"But what it means is someone somewhere thinks there's a lot of money in live music, and that someone wants to pay to see human beings so at least we're still at that stage. When it's all holograms then that's a different kettle of fish. It's hard for me to judge at this point.

He adds: "Years ago people would have laughed at that amount of investment coming to Manchester because it was post-industiral. It wasn't a place that people would come into at night. But it took the Tony Wilsons, the mavericks, the madheads, for things to change - that's the abiding lessons - listening to those people."

Richard Ashcroft plays Robin Park, Wigan on July 20 and 21.