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A subreddit for any news, information, artwork, and discussion about the Pleistocene epoch.
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r/Paleontology
What is palæontology? Literally, the word translates from Greek παλαιός + ον + λόγος [ old + being + science ] and is the science that unravels the æons-long story of life on the planet Earth, from the earliest monera to the endless forms we have now, including humans, and of the various long-dead offshoots that still inspire today. This community is open to anyone interested in paleontology, fossils, and evolution.
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r/pleistocene
A subreddit for any news, information, artwork, and discussion about the Pleistocene epoch.
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Dholes, little buttonquails, and marsh owls also are now “ missing” in europe Personally I think the “ wapiti” remains are Central Asian Red Deer, but they may just be a local extinct subspecies of Red Dear also, or a wapiti, genetic information would be nice
Does anyone have info on the former range of asian water buffalo, like a map of fossils?
Yes, there are many other species that I could have mentioned, such as the steppe pika, or the Atlantic sturgeons.
However, from what I understand, the survivors of the Alps belong to a subspecies of wapiti that lived in Europe since the Middle Pleistocene, the so-called European elk or wapiti (Cervus canadensis palmidactyloceros).
The European water buffalo (Bubalus murrensis) was a different species from the Asian water buffalo (B. arnee).
Wikipedia suggests B. Arnee remains were found in Armenia, but the source they site doesn’t specify beyond Bubalus https://hal.science/hal-01829334/document
I know this very well, the species I am talking about here in the texts is the Asian one which however was also found in the southern Caucas
What's your source for that?
Well the most famous findings of this species in the Holocene in this area come from Armenia.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618215004267#:~:text=The%20diversity%20of%20Late%20Pleistocene%20and%20Holocene%20wild%20ungulates%20and%20kites%20structures%20in%20Armenia
Water buffalo fossils where found in both the Netherlands and Germany aswel.
It is now common knowledge that Europe was practically endowed with a greater biodiversity in the past, like the rest of the world, even if the megafauna of the Pleistocene usually gets all the attention for this topic, it must be remembered that even in the Holocene the fauna on this continent was still rich compared to today, with some iconic Pleistocene species that persisted in Europe, such as the woolly mammoth (Mammuthus primigenius), the woolly rhinoceros (Coelodonta antiquitatis), the Irish elk or giant deer (Megaloceros giganteus) and steppe bison (Bison priscus), alongside many species were once present and even common on the continent but which today survive outside of it, not to mention those still present but with restricted or isolated areas compared to when in the past they extended into throughout Europe or even beyond, today we will see only some of these animals, focusing above all on some that are little spoken about.
We can start with an animal that although today is very well known and iconic is actually little talked about on this topic, the elk or wapiti (Cervus canadensis) was a very common species of deer during the Pleistocene of Europe, decreasing in population when the open spaces that they inhabited became rarer, it is thought that this occurred due to the disappearance of the larger megafauna that maintained the small prairies and open scrublands in this region, in fact this species seemed to survive on the continent in the Holocene, approximately up to 3000 BC, only in an isolated population in the Alps, thanks to the open habitats they persisted even without the presence of the megafauna due to the Alpine climate, while in the rest of Europe they were replaced by the red deer (Cervus elaphus), which was more accustomed to closed spaces, the thing to note is that previously these two species both coexisted in Europe during the Pleistocene, it's just that they seemed to avoid competition thanks to habitat preference.
Another ungulate that does not seem to get much attention due to its presence in Europe is the wild water buffalo (Bubalus arnee), but perhaps this can be explained because it was not an inhabitant of the European peninsula, unlike its extinct cousin the European water buffalo (Bubalus murrensis), in fact this species now restricted to southern Asia seemed to have also been present in the southern part of the Caucasus, with findings for example in Armenia, with a range that also extended into the western part of the Middle East and part of Turkey, here would have had to face various predators, including one that this species continues to face in Asia today, the disappeared apex predators of these areas, the tiger (Panthera tigris), with the population of these areas known as the Caspian tiger, inhabited the various habitats of western Asia -Central and Eastern Europe, with evidence to the west indicating their presence in the southern part of Ukraine, but it was not the only big cat completely extirpated from Europe.
This other great apex predator which has now completely disappeared from Europe is ironically one of the most present and important symbols for the culture of this continent, the common Lion (Panthera leo), the last species of lion remaining today, which seemed to have colonized the part southern Europe after the retreat to the north of the steppe lion (Panthera spelaea), more suited to temperate and Mediterranean climates, this species extended throughout practically all of southern Europe, from the Iberian peninsula and the southern coast of France, up to the island of Sicily of Italy, reaching the Balkans, even up to western Turkey and the southern part of the Caucasus, but seemed absent in the northern part of the Black Sea, these populations seemed to be part, or at least were closely related, to the modern Asian subspecies, they seemed having disappeared completely from southern Europe around the 4th or 3rd century BCE, with the last specimens surviving in the eastern part of the Balkan peninsula.
If we talk about the disappeared marine life of Europe, various species may come to mind that have witnessed the reduction of their range, but there is one that has completely disappeared from this continent and does not seem to be talked about much, the Mediterranean in fact seemed to host in the past two species of sawfish, which probably also inhabit the deltas and rivers of this basin, the largetooth sawfish (Pristis pristis) and the smalltooth sawfish (Pristis pectinata), both which seemed to reach enormous dimensions compared to today, with the first species which reached 7 meters or 23 feet in length, and the second, a little smaller, reached around 5 meters or 16.4 feet; in the past these species actually seemed to be recognized as vagrants in the Mediterranean, but more recent evidence seems to demonstrate that this was a stable and reproducing population, and they were not the only giants to reproduce in this sea.
In fact, one of the most possible emblems of the disappeared marine fauna of Europe are the whales, in particular the gray whale (Eschrichtius robustus), a species that has now completely disappeared from the North Atlantic, due to overhunting, which was very easy thanks to the fact that this it is a coastal species, it seemed it was once present on all the coasts of Europe, even the Mediterranean, here bones dating back to Roman times have been found, with some hypothesizing that this closed sea was an ancient area for the reproduction, births and growth of calf, in a similar way to the Gulf of California, another cetacean that seemed to be present in the past in this sea is the North Atlantic right whale (Eubalaena glacialis), today only found in the North Atlantic coasts.
The Mediterranean would also have hosted various species of birds which today are rare or can be found in precise and isolated areas of this basin, an excellent example are in particular three of the largest birds found today in Europe, the Dalmatian pelican (Pelecanus crispus), the great white pelican (Pelecanus onocrotalus), and the greater flamingo (Phoenicopterus roseus), once species found not only along all the coasts of the European Mediterranean, but also in the European inland, central Europe and beyond, with the Dalmatian pelican which seemed to arrive even in the British islands in ancient times, there was also a subspecies of brown fish owl that inhabited this basin, the Mediterranean brown fish owl (Ketupa zeylonensis lamarmorae) which is now extinct, although modern representatives of this species can still be found in southern Asia .
The last species we will see is also an animal that is incredibly little known for how particular it is, it is also the only reptile we will talk about here today, the common chameleon or Mediterranean chameleon (Chamaeleo chamaeleon), that's right, chameleons are present in Europe, this species today can only be found in the southernmost part of southern Europe, in particular in the south of the Italian and Iberian peninsula, and some islands; although it is logical to think that they are found so far south due to not being accustomed to overly temperate climates, it seems that this species was once present at latitudes comparable to those of the Mediterranean part of France, where they would possibly have been present, together to practically the entirety of the other two peninsulas mentioned above.
I saw wild flamingos in southern Spain in March of this year.
Edit. “Or have smaller range”
I meant a reduced range compared to how it was originally, among all the flamingos they are the species in this list with the widest range, but they once reached as far as northern Germany.
I did two weeks ago, but in Montpelier
What about brown hyenas, dholes, hippos, leopards and wolverines?
Yes, all of these species lived during the Holocene, except the hippopotamus, which disappeared from Europe during the late Pleistocene.
Brown Hyenas, dholes, hippos and Panthera pardus spelaea went extinct in Europe during Pleistocene. There are still wolverines in Europe.
Wolverines used to be far more widespread in Europe.
Truth but there are still wolverines in Europe and Op stated that post is about animals went extinct/reduced in range in Europe during Holocene.
"Some species of non-extinct animals which have completely disappeared from Europe or which now have a much smaller range."
Did the muskox make it to the holocene? It seems like it could have survived in Norway for way longer, but never got the chance, presumably due to intense hunting on the European mainland during the pleistocene?
This is a good possibility, given that they apparently survived in far northern Europe
Yes, to the very beginning of the Holocene(9000 years ago in Sweden).
During the Pleistocene, many Arctic species once lived further south than they do today. Polar bears and snowy owls lived as far south as Iberia once. Arctic foxes lived further south than they do now as well.
also, leopards and quite possibly ancestral Lycaon (African wild dogs ) lived in Europe.
Great post OP 👍 ignore the spergs screeching "SOURCE!?!!!!?" "What do you define as REDUCED!?!!!!" Like a bunch of Chabad Talmudic Pipul wannabes. TIL from you.
European lion may be its own subspecies or a population of Northern lion (Panthera leo leo), which includes the Asiatic lion, the Atlas lion and West African lion (now considered the same subspecies).
Yes, but from what I understand that proposal of its own subspecies is a bit controversial, making the second option more likely.
Links?
Sorry, I couldn't find the article anymore, I read it a few years ago
Apparently another population of Wapiti lived in parts of Sweden for a time before going extinct, though it was likely a different subspecies given how isolated it was from the relict population in the Alps
A dwarf form also existed on Capri Island near Italy (Cervus canadensis tyrrhenicus)
Right, but neither of these two populations survives in such recent times as that of the Alps