A community for all things related to the Wheel of Time fantasy series by Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson. This includes the Amazon Prime TV show.
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I'll be honest with the unpopular opinion that A Memory of Light was my least favorite book in the series. I was disappointed by the Last Battle and also it felt like Sanderson injected his own theology heavily into the story with the whole "free will, even to make evil choices, is better than if everyone did good." To me it's pretty dissatisfying that the same cycle of conflict is going to keep playing out endlessly for infinite time.
My real question is, was all that definitely RJ's plan, or did Sanderson actually have to be the one to come up with those metaphysics of the nature of the Dark One, Rand, and so forth? I can respect it more if it was RJ's intended vision all along.
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Since nobody has actually answered your question: Yes, he has the notes on how to end the story. This is the idea RJ was going for. Most of the epilogue was written by RJ, and the series was aimed at this from the beginning.
If there is one, pure, underlying theme to WoT, it’s BALANCE. Whether it’s gender, or power, or good/evil, the entire series built from page 1 to say that the world needs balance.
Thanks for answering that.
I know for a fact that the Verin chapter was 1000% Robert Jordan (I asked, my daughter is named Verin) and Brando was like "yep, all him"
Loved that.
Wdym. That’s literally the whole point since forever. There are no beginnings or endings just a beginning.
I’m also like pretty sure rands whole conflict with the DO and the ending are very heavily touched on in the notes.
Right? If you go back and read EotW right after Memory of Light, it was there all along.
This may be one of the hottest wot takes I’ve seen. At the start of the story I was certain that Rands journey would have him defeating the dark one and making time linear but the real conclusion I felt was beautiful.
You think it's beautiful that that same cycle of suffering will have to continue endlessly and infinitely for all time, just so people can have some moments of love and laughter at times? The veins of gold stuff makes me sick.
Okay Elan
Realistically, the Creator in the WOT universe is infinitely worse than the DO. I think Ishamael is completely justified and has sound philosophical logic. It's possible RJ would have treated the same theme with more sophistication, but Sanderson really doesn't make a convincing case that Rand's solution is any better than Ishamael's.
In Ishamael’s solution everyone dies. Most people definitely do not want to die, so keeping people alive is better.
It’s also made clear that Ishamael was wrong, that there’d be no actual oblivion
Some of the themes of this story are very personal for Jordan. When Jordan fought in Vietnam he became incredibly cold and hard hearted. Fellow soldiers called him the Iceman. Coming back from that place was a hard journey for him. Rand's journey into darkness and journey out of it are personal for Jordan. The theme that life is still worth living, and love still worth having, are things he had to come to terms with himself.
Yeah I think it’s sick my boy Rand gets to come back and do it all again lol. Suffering and pain is inevitable regardless of if time is linear or circular.
I think reincarnation is pretty cool lol
In Buddhism, the goal is to end the cycle of reincarnation, since existence is inherently dissatisfactory. Rand comes to the opposite conclusion, that infinite rebirth of the same exact cycle without end is a good thing. But really it's the Creator who's the ultimate villain here. He created the DO, and he doesn't really do jack shit to improve his creation whatsoever. I think Ishamael is infinitely more ethical than the Creator.
Ok man lol. I understand how reincarnation works and the point, I’m just saying it’s cool. Sorry you didn’t like the books
You aren't making a case that non-existence is better either. The crux of your argument seems to be that it's against Buddhism.
The cycle of suffering? The level of suffering in WoT isn’t much more or less than in our own world. In general outside of times of crisis, it seems most people have lived fairly good lives.
All those that can remember their past lives also seem pretty happy with their lot, even knowing that they’ll be reborn into moments of conflict.
Would you want to be reborn endlessly? The whole premise of all the eastern religions is that its a given that that's a highly dissatisfactory state of affairs. The whole goal of those religions is to stop the endless cycle of birth and death. I think you're wrong, even for the developed world because the suffering tends to be deeper and more subtle than the obvious forms of pain and anguish, but the majority of the world doesn't have things as well as rhe developed world. Life in much of the world is a hellscape. The WOT world has the benefit of having magical healing and things like that, though. And I suppose it helps that in WOT world, one is always reborn as a human. Whereas religions in our world say that one could be reborn in various realms, including as an animal, a hell realm that might last for eons, etc.
Sure? Why would I care about being reborn endlessly? Every reincarnation is a new person, with a new identity, shaped by new circumstances, living a new life. I won't remember it. Out of all humans that exist, only about 100 people routinely remember being reborn after they've died, that is to say, the Heroes of the Horn. And they seem very happy about it. Other than that, only some exceptionally rare cases of terminal mental illness have vague recollections.
Life in the world of WoT doesn't seem to be a hellscape. In most places, people seem to be generally more or less content with their lot. If everyone was living in abject misery, people would collective commit suicide all the time. They don't. Because people want to live. It's a super strong desire. Even during temporary misery, people want to live to make it better.
Rand just ending the world would've been an act of supreme evil. The eradication of all life, the murder of billions and the erasure of countless trillions of new people. The ending of everyone's potential. Against their will.
If he'd held a vote, asking if he should seal the Dark One, and destroy the world, I think a staggering majority would've voted to seal the Dark One away. A tiny minority wanting oblivion does not get to decide to end the lives of everybody else.
See, this is why RJ was a genius. He knew that Moridin resonates with real people.
Let's hope you never get near the nuke button.
Lol, come on. There's a vast difference between wanting to nuke people and thinking that an endless cycle of reincarnation is a bad thing. The most pro-life religions on earth, that are against harming even insects (Jainism and Buddhism) still see the ultimate goal as escaping the endless cycle of birth and death.
How would you know if we don't have an endless cycle of reincarnation?
Plus, nuking everything to oblivion still would not stop the cycle of rebirth in these religion's views. People would simply be reborn in another solar system or something.
It's a joke.
Not only did he have the notes, Large Swaths of the final 3 books were written by Jordan. Basically everyone except Perrin had their pivotal scenes written or at least heavily outlined by Jordan.
Also, the fact that time is cyclical and there will be no concrete beginning or ending was stated cresting in Book 1, Chapter 1, Paragraph 1, sentence 3.
Jordan wrote most of Egwene in TGS, Tower of Ghenjei, Merrilor meeting, some prologue scenes, the epilogue, some bits and pieces here and there.
The confrontation with the DO must have been in the notes. But especially in the last two books, I think there were oceans of blanks for Sanderson to fill in and pretty much make it up from scratch.
Sanderson has commented a bit in older threads on the process and what Jordan left for him.
Don't be disingenuous.
He isn't. Everything he is saying is accurate.
Wrong.
What's your argument?
Really, least favorite in the series, so even crossroads of twilight is better in your opinion? You are sending mixed signals here, the aspect of destiny and eternal cycle have always been in the series since book one, but you say you hate how it ended because of the philosophical nature of the question of evil while also trying to praise RJ’s philosophy which was in line with what RJ wrote. You also seem to hate it but would also “respect it if that’s what RJ wanted.” Really it seems like you are just trying to find a reason to shit on BS.
Yea this is just very thinly veiled Sanderson hate lol
It is such a strange take too. They like the author so much that they claim to have read his entire bibliography twice and yet he is not one of the best fantasy writers in their opinion?
That means I can think of fantasy authors on a higher caliber. Like George RR Martin, Robin Hobb, Tad Williams, Guy Gavriel Kay, Robert Jordan. It doesn't mean he's not a great author I don't enjoy. I don't particularly like the sci-fi direction the cosmere is going, but I'll still be reading them.
You honestly believe R.R Martin is a better fantasy writer than Sanderson? Lol
Yes COT is better. Sanderson did a great job with the other 2 books before AMOL though.
That's literally the core cosmology of the series. It's on the marquee. It's the wheel of time. The fact that this is how the world works is pretty much stated from book one.
It's not stated that the same battle with the dark one will happen infinitely.
Almost like its a wheel or something
Yeah it’s not like Ishamael says the fight has been going on and on forever over and over. Wait a minute…
Oh yeah, and this is stated in book 1 that this will always have to be the case too, since otherwise people's "free will" would be taken away which is somehow a greater horror? I just finished EOTW reread, that's simply not mentioned. The full implications of this aren't known until Rands confrontation with the DO in a AMOL.
The free will thing is Jordan’s. I don’t know what to tell you.
No, because eventually the dark one wins, but otherwise the same battle will occur again and again
Lmao, why keep it going if hes going to win anyway? Sanderson really butchered the theology of the last book. Many would rightly say that Ishamael's view on the matter is perfectly justified.
The irony is that you're actually upset that Sanderson didn't inject his own theology into the ending. In a Christian/Mormon worldview, time is linear and the Messiah is supposed to come, throw down Satan, and create a perfect paradise with no conflict or pain. This is a lot closer to what you seem to want than what Jordan was going for.
Sounds like someone is just wanting to hate on Sanderson. You’ve called other people disingenuous in this thread — maybe look in the mirror
You seem like the kind of person who would read The Myth of Sisyphus and get pissed off that Sisyphus never gets to the top of the mountain. You also say
Despite being told over and over again that this is Robert Jordan's theology and his intent all along.
This is literally answered in the text during an incredibly pivotal moment.
Moridin 's view is justified, that's why he's a direct counterpoint to Rand as a character.
Yes
I do appreciate when ppl confidently incorrectly assume otherwise tho as some weird dig at Sanderson lol
I didn't assert otherwise, I asked a question.
Mate, if you think you hid the passive agressive well, I regret to inform you that you failed. It was an attack poorly disguised as a question
No it wasn't. I was genuinely asking if it was RJs plan for it or not. In the process I also did imply dissatisfaction with some of Sandersons choices. But only one user actually answered the question that was asked. The stuff about AMOL being less than my favorite was a secondary thing that led up to the actual question.
Perhaps you should reflect on the way you phrase your questions, in that case. Most of the people here didn’t not take this as a genuine question for a reason.
Harriet and Brandon have spoken multiple times on how extensive RJ’s notes were, and what BS had to essentially invent from scratch for the last battle (side plots for secondary and tertiary characters, who to kill or not kill) and what was written almost in entirety by RJ (Rand’s confrontation with DO, epilogue). It’s very easily findable if you are just genuinely curious.
Same here. It was about a battle that went on the entire book but what they were doing in the battle didn't make any sense. I can't believe that Robert Jordan intended to write it like that.
Plus after books and books of foreshadowing about Moiraine, she doesn't actually do anything in the book.
For sure. It just all blurs together after the first few hundred pages of trolloc battles and Aes Sedai, plus Androl being a Sanderson self-insert who didn't feel like a realistic WOT character. I'm not saying I hated it, it just isn't the masterpiece so many make it out to be imo. I'll still read it again.
Crossroads of Twilight is the masterpiece, the most Robert Jordanny of all the books. It went downhill with KoD what with Robert Jordan just ending a bunch of plot threads in unsatisfying ways, and then Sanderson taking over.
As for Androl: I liked him, but yeah, totally unecessary to add in a new character when there was already so many old characters to deal with. Like Moiraine.
Finally a voice of reason on this sub. I liked COT more than AMOL by far. And Winter's Heart is probably my 2nd favorite book in the series. I just don't think Sanderson really "got" the characters and world completely. He did a decent job finishing up the series, but he was no RJ in terms of skill. Partly thats a disadvantage of it not being his world. But even his cosmere books have a very YA vibe, with silliness that you just don't see in WOT. Androl was focused way too much on at the expense of characters like Moiraine, Logain, and others. It's good to see someone agreeing with me so I don't feel completely insane with these attacks on me.
Same here, too.
That's because he wrote them in his Cosmere style. For instance, did you happen to notice that Perrin ended up being a combo of his - Stormlight Kalidan/Dalinar - characters, and not the Perrin where Jordan had left him off?
Winter's Heart is also a Jordan masterpiece.
Brandon talks about this Look at the vids
I think the conflict between Rand and the DO was roughly in accordance with Jordan’s vision. The Finn’s answer to Rand hints at it, and we know there uas to be a Dark One for the Cycle to continue.
That said…I think Jordan probably would have habdled it better. And he absolutely would have made a much, much better TG. Ie not written it like a sports announcer.
I'm sure RJ would have executed the concept better, you're right. What irritated me was that Sanderson simply turned the Last Battle into an extended action sequence with his characteristic blow by blow of every aspect of the action, as well as needing to tinker with the magic systems, as that's his main obsession in general. Jordan had a more subtle way with action sequences that's hard to describe. Everything was deeper and more philosophical in his books than Sanderson's. I'm actually a fan of Sanderson, and I've read all his books twice, I just think he's not a top 5 fantasy author of all time like he's so often portrayed to be.
“RJ was subtle with his action sequences” Queue the Dumai’s Wells meat grinder.
He used those kinds of scenes very sparingly, making them all the more effective. All I remember from a memory of light is countless trollocs being hacked down and Androl making quips while he finds unique ways to exploit the magic system. And some really awful philosophizing in "veins of gold."
Did he have the notes to go by? Yes and no. He had a lot of personal notes RJ compiled while brainstorming and a very few initial drafts of scenes. He also had an outline of the Last Battle or how many of the threads would be tied up, dictated shortly before RJ passed away. But there were also large numbers of gaps that had to be filled in. Broad strokes indeed.
Personally, I don't believe that Sanderson changed the philosophy involved in Rand's character revelations. They seem to fit in with what Jordan wrote. Are they trite? That's a matter of opinion, but really Rand's end journey is only a small part of the series. We know he has to continue the cycle and that he will be victorious, so there should be no great surprises there. A justification for doing so seems necessary to explain.
I thought that RJ had mentioned before passing that he had written about 1k pages already, he wanted to produce it in one book, then admitted that it might have to be 2, and then as a cash grab, they made it three books with BS filling in and writing additional things to tie it all together.
I've seen interviews with RJ struggling with the fact that his plot for the third book was expected to take him 3,000 pages to write.
i thought the 3000 number was the total amount for the final book, that he wanted to produce in one volume, but then admitted it would probably be 2, which posthumously they made it three.
I mean, with 3,000 pages it isn't exactly a big "cash grab" to publish in three parts. Pretty rare that 1,500 page novels are published. I expect RJ would have gotten it to at least 3 books, maybe even more.
RJ had a shitton of notes. Plus Sanderson is a big fan of wheel of time. He wanted to finish the series as close to the original as possible.
From the wiki: "Jordan was diagnosed with the terminal heart disease primary amyloidosis with cardiomyopathy in December 2005,[79] and while he intended to finish at least A Memory of Light even if the "worse comes to worst,"[80] he made preparations in case he was not able to complete the book: "I'm getting out notes, so if the worst actually happens, someone could finish A Memory of Light and have it end the way I want it to end."[78]"