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In my opinion, Henry VIII basically believed he was in love with all of his wives except for Anne of Cleves (the one marriage made purely for political purposes). His brand of "love" is the furthest thing from what we would call "healthy" or "unconditional" but however you want to define his feelings for the women he purposefully chose to marry, HE believed it was love and he was a deluded romantic like that. At the same time, I also think his love for Jane Seymour more so sprouted from all the right coincidences falling into place. Had his marriage with Anne Boleyn turned out the way he hoped, he might've only indulged in a passing attraction to Jane or not noticed her at all. Had Jane died giving birth to another girl, Henry might've never bothered to remember her fondly and regarded her as a failure like Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. As a result, I don't like the popular belief that she was his "true love" because he probably would've fell out of love with her if she disappointed him as much as the other wives did.
What's worse, people never talk about Jane's feelings for Henry regarding her position as his "favorite wife." Considering Katherine of Aragon's final recorded words about Henry, it's safe to assume that she truly loved him despite everything he did to her and I think there's evidence that Anne Boleyn might've loved Henry at some point too (yes, I agree that what he did to her amounts to stalking in the modern day but according to courtly love traditions, Henry's behavior would've been seen as romantic and unfortunately, being a smart woman doesn't protect you from falling for men with huge red flags). The last three wives's feelings towards Henry are way more likely to be pragmatic in nature, considering Henry's monstrousness was on full display at that point. But as likely as Henry's feelings for Jane were real (as real as they can get for him), what do you think Jane's feelings for Henry likely were? While we have Katherine of Aragon's final letter to Henry and Henry's love letters to Anne Boleyn, I think the only evidence we have of Henry and Jane's love is the stuff that Henry had made after Jane died, the painting of her with his children and their shared tomb.
In my opinion, I think it's much less likely that Jane had real feelings for Henry than Anne did. People forget that Jane was a part of an ambitious family too and while we'll never know how much of an enthusiastic participant she was in it, Jane also clearly had a strong faith in the Catholic Church and wanted the monasteries restored. She probably saw being Queen of England as a way to fulfill her personal goals for the country (though she failed to do so, whether out of fear for her life or a plan to play the long game combined with an unfortunate early death). Of course, I don't advocate for the position that Jane was a scheming heartless bitch because it lowkey feels like a vindictive way to stick Anne Boleyn's bad reputation onto Jane's "boring good girl" image. Trust me, I'm an Anne Boleyn fangirl for life but smearing Jane's reputation feels hypocritical and wrong. I prefer to think of Jane as an ordinary young woman like Catherine Howard, who would've happily lived a normal life if her family wasn't so close to politics.
I think in a world where Katherine of Aragon's sons lived, England never broke with the Church, and Henry still felt the need to whore around like he does and happens to still fall for Jane, Jane would've rejected his advances and meant it. It's almost ironically funny that Jane gets cast in a romantic light the most out of Henry's wives when we really don't know whether she really cared for romance that much. Katherine of Aragon and Henry were well-known as a love match before everything fell apart and Anne Boleyn fought hard to get with Henry Percy before Wolsey put an end to it. Catherine Parr fell for Thomas Seymour (AKA, my example that being a smart woman doesn't prevent you from falling for red flags) and Catherine Howard might've (emphasis on "might've") genuinely loved Thomas Culpeper. Meanwhile, we don't know anything about Jane's love life beyond a failed engagement before she met Henry and everything memorialized Henry's passion for her was made after her death. So who knows what Jane felt about the guy while she was actually alive? Who knows if she would've genuinely been flattered by the way Henry remembered her? Who knows if she was a romantic person at all or just a woman who wanted England to remain faithful to Rome?
What do you guys think?
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![r/OtomeIsekai - [Why Raeliana Ended Up In the Duke's Mansion] Unpopular opinion, but I honestly sympathize for her.](https://b.thumbs.redditmedia.com/qiYvr_qid8rBr1JQgiG1Lxp43136C0eZZK2LN-sLsuQ.jpg)
Even though we can of course never know this with certainty I agree that it’s unlikely Jane ever felt some deep, passionate love for Henry. Maybe she was comfortable with him. It’s also true that she didn’t live long enough for Henry to get sick of her, which he eventually would have of course.
A lot of Tudor media seems to try and pigeon-hole Jane as the only wife who would've loved Henry if he wasn't King of England (including Six the Musical, unfortunately) but I think what we have left of Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn more clearly show a sincere romantic attachment to Henry beyond what he is, while we don't have anything that shows Jane's affection for Henry. As dumb as the whole "who was Henry VIII's true love" debate is, I honestly think it's more likely to be Katherine of Aragon or Anne Boleyn, if you want to define love by what you have in common with someone and the passion you share.
Oh absolutely. CoA was devoted to him, I mean in her dying moments she even wrote, “lastly, do I vow, that mine eyes desire you above all things”. Her love must have been deep and true and she was married to Henry for longer than his 5 subsequent wives combined and knew him intimately well. They also went through having children for the the first time together and all the rest of it. I’d classify her love for him as deep and dignified whereas Anne’s was fiery and passionate. But with his subsequent 4 there doesn’t seem to have been much feeling, at least none that’s made it into the records and we know Anne of Cleves was freaked out when he tried to surprise her and Catherine Howard was straight up repulsed.
Did Henry himself have the capacity to truly love? Hard to know really, the true measure of his emotions and feelings has been lost to time and to a large extent eclipsed by the monstrous and callous image we have of him today.
You really think that KOA and Anne loved Henry? I mean I don't think we can really know but IMO I don't think so. KOA may have loved Henry eventually as she was raised to be a political pawn so that's all she knew but Anne .. Anne I felt was playing the ultimate game of chess . I think if she had the choice and chosen for love then she may have chosen Henry Percy . I think Anne ultimately enjoyed the power she had over Henry and or course her father was most likely pushing her towards Henry.
If she was playing a game of chess, I don't think she'd have made such a big deal of him cheating. She hated it. I think she and KOA are the only two of his wives that actually loved him.
She may have been making a big deal because she was losing power over him? That he was doing to her what he did to KOA so it could lead to him divorcing her for a new fling? I mean that's a possibility too I would think.
Katherine was married to Henry for 17 years and it was reported as a happy marriage. He professed his love for her many times but was pressured by the ‘court’ regarding his lack of a son. Most historians agree that Henry decided to hold true to his engagement to Catherine for the simple reason of familiarity. Henry was 10 years old when Catherine first arrived in England to marry his older brother and had always had her before him as an example of a young, desirable bride. Also, it was his father’s dying wish that they marry. (Henry Vll)
With Anne Boleyn it was probably just sheer lust (as well as political pressure) on his part and the desire for power on her’s.
It wasn’t Henry VII’s dying wish they marry. A lot of his cabinet and he himself had cooled on the Spanish alliance since the death of Isabella and the issues with the dowry. They were toying with marrying Henry to Eleanor Hapsburg, Catherine’s niece, when Henry VII finally died.
The only one to claim it was Henry VII’s dying wish was Henry VIII.
Weren’t they technically married for 24 years?
Oh I quite agree with you about all this from Henry's POV and I think KOA may have come to love him. I don't think it started that way but young Henry was considered quite the catch from what I understand even despite the fact that he was going to be king.
I think he knew how badly she'd been treated by her father and his father and he wanted to be the shining knight to save her. It fits with Anne's execution as well. It could have been worse i.e. an axe hacking her. He wanted to be seen as a gentleman giving her a quick and dignified end via the sword.
I think Henry would have been "fine"/resigned with Mary as his heir if her engagement to Charles V or one of Francis I's sons had held. The potential of a grandson to be the next Holy Roman Emperor would have been desirable to him. But Charles V ended the betrothal. Francis I insinuated that Mary was a bastard and not fit to marry his son. There weren't really any other matches and he made a decision that he'd thought about off/on (first reported, I believe, that Henry started hinting at an annulment in the early 1520s) at the "right" time i.e. Anne refusing to become his mistress. He probably took it as a sign from God or some bs like that when she kept saying no.
I also do not think Henry actually hated Katherine at all until around 1531ish. I think he knew that she would be hurt/devastated but knew that he had a duty and that she'd eventually understand. And she didn't.
I think she was afraid of him. He had divorced an actual royal princess and beheaded Anne Boleyn...
It would have been difficult for her not to be at least wary of him. She knew what he'd done to wives 1 and 2, she chose her wedding clothes the same day Anne Boleyn was executed, and the only time she tried to have some input into anything vaguely political (the Pilgrimage of Grace), Henry reminded her of the fate her predecessor met when she 'meddled in his affairs'. His goodwill and affection looked to be conditional on whatever wife he was on shutting up and being quiet.
Hmm, being married to Henry is the last position I'd ever feel comfortable in.
Meh, as comfortable as it’s possible to be. Seems she just kept her head down and got all the trappings and comforts of being queen.
I fully believe that Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn did love him, but as for the other wives, I doubt it.
Given the position of the Seymour family at court, and the later secret marriage of Katherine Grey to Edward Seymour, 1st Earl of Hertford, I would say that Jane Seymour's marriage to King Henry VIII was far more of a political marriage than it was romantic, or a love match.
Thomas Seymour, 1st Baron Seymour of Sudeley, the second husband of Catherine Parr after the death of King Henry VIII, also sought to increase his status at court through marriage(s).
Thomas was CPs 4th husband. He was the 1st and only husband after King H8 who was her 3rd husband.
Anne Boleyn wasn’t in love with Henry VIII (well certainly not at the beginning).
When Henry VIII started to pursue her, she was actually betrothed to Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland. They were due to get married and there seems to have been a genuine affection there but sadly she fell prey to Henry VIII’s wandering eye…. and she made him wait SEVEN years before she married him.
They were not due to get married, it was a secret betrothal without his father's consent. King Henry or not, the odds of it going through weren't great. And whether it was squashed when Henry targeted Anne or before isn't settled.
She also tried to leave court entirely to escape Henry8.
I believe the Percy affair was long since squashed by the time Henry fixated on Anne. IIRC, he agreed with Wolsey that they would solve several problems by marrying Anne off to the Irish Ormond/Butler heir.
One source for dates is here, the first evidence of Henry wooing Anne is about 4 years after the Henry Percy affair was ended by Wolsey and Northumberland.
no one can definitively say how anne felt about henry but the rest of this is just untrue
I think she was scared of him. Opinion is divided as to how Jane felt about being the new object of Henry's affections. Some see Jane's calm and gentle demeanor as evidence that she didn't really understand the position as political pawn she was playing for her family. Others see it as a mask for her fear. Seeing how Henry's two previous Queens had been treated once they fell from favour, Jane probably had some trepidation, although Anne Boleyn's final fate had not been sealed at that time. One other view was that Jane fell into her role quite willingly and actively sought to entice the King and flaunt her favor even in front of the current Queen. Personally, I don’t believe that theory. How Jane actually felt, we will never know. Henry's feelings were pretty clear though. She is the only one of his wives/family to be buried with him in Windsor Castle.
Yes I came here to say that while it was surely a political match she must have been terrified. This man had cast aside his first wife who had been born to be Queen, broken with the church, and beheaded his next wife! Truly there was no knowing what he’d do to suit his whims. If I were in her shoes I’d be worried that my neck could wind up on the block too!
I believe that Anne Boleyn was the only woman Henry had a true, organic connection with both mentally and romantically. Whether or not she felt the same at any point is hard to say.
Many people believe his marriage to Catherine of Aragon was also a true love match, but I disagree. He and CoA both viewed marriage as more of a business transaction than something built on real love. Yes, they got along, but would they have ever been together if both of them weren't royalty? Probably not. CoA's relationship with Henry early in their marriage (when people claim it was the happiest) was more of a big sister/little brother love. She was regal, pious and took her position as queen very seriously. Henry was in his party boy phase. He would do silly things like jump out and surprise CoA and her ladies while disguised in a costume and then gallivant with his buddies the rest of the time. Henry was doing anything besides work and being serious in that time period. Being married to someone like CoA worked for him initially because it meant he could trust her to know what to do while he was off doing all the fun things a wealthy 20 something in his time would do. He was fine allowing CoA and his advisors like Wolsey to do all the work during his "wild oat sowing" era. It was when he grew up and began to take an interest in politics and statecraft that the problems began between them. Not having a child was one part of it, but I also think CoA made Henry feel insecure. She came from a much grander dynasty, she was the one the crowds adored and she was the one who held herself with grace and dignity. A cluster B type (IMO) like Henry would be jealous of these traits, especially in a wife. He was already taking her down a peg with his indiscreet affairs. I think he wanted to humiliate her as much as he wanted to have a son. I know this opinion is not shared by all.
Anne was the kind of woman who Henry would have chosen for himself. His long-term dedication to her is proof of this. Even after her death, he favorably compared Anne Boleyn against Anne of Cleves in a letter to Princess Elizabeth. There was even contemporary rumors that Henry tried to repent for Anne's death when he lay on his deathbed fearing hell. Anne was the woman who had intellectually inspired him to seize ultimate power for himself. Anne is sometimes portrayed as helpless in this sub, and in some ways she was, but she had strongly held beliefs, especially about the roles of church and state and how the two should mix. I believe his intellectual ambitions were awakened by Anne and she inspired him find his own voice as King and unshackle himself from the obligations to Rome and the Pope. She introduced ideas to Henry, through early protestant literature she had smuggled into England (by my ancestors who were the exclusive mercers to the English royal court and smuggled in religious texts with the cloths of gold and silver they imported) added significantly to his control over his Kingdom by becoming the head of the church as well as the state. I am not saying that the love between Henry and Anne was the healthiest, but I believe that Henry spent the happiest moments of his life during their years together. Becoming head of the church was the pinnacle of Henry's power as a king. It made him an absolute monarch in a way that is rarely seen in history. It was the move he made that allowed him to become the horrifying tyrant he became by the end. Henry loved to feel powerful.
Sadly for Anne, the same kind of insecurities and jealousies he felt about CoA's competence began eating away at him about Anne. Many believe she would have been fine if she had produced a son, but I am not sure I agree. Anne was likely more intelligent than Henry, had impeccable manners and charmed the people who knew her best. That would have inflamed that jealousy in Henry that had always been there. Her days were numbered from the first time he decided to make her his wife IMO. Henry was a classic cluster b, in that he latched on to his partners, sucked the life and soul out of them, then discarded the husk while taking on the best qualities of the victim he had just destroyed. Catherine had given him the manners and presence of a King. Anne gave him a sense of his own entitlement and power. Cutting off her head was his twisted mind's way of proving to himself that the power really was all his. She had helped him get the power he had always craved, but a tyrannical throne is a seat built for one. Anne had to go.
Then there was Jane Seymour. It is interesting to me that Henry was already courting Jane before Anne's fall from grace. Jane was almost an opposite of Anne in many ways. Anne was sophisticated, worldly, educated, raven haired, dark eyed, slim and willowy. Jane was nearly illiterate, had never been abroad, had a simpler country upbringing, had pale hair, blue eyes and was buxom and feminine. Her religious beliefs were sympathetic to the Catholic priests, monks and nuns who were being displaced by the dissolution of the abbeys and executed for refusing to recognize Henry as the head of the church. Unlike Anne, however, Jane only voiced her opinions about this once to Henry, and was coldly rebuked. Henry didn't want a partner or a lover by this point in his life. He wanted a placeholder and incubator who he could control and father a family with.
Did Jane love him? I doubt she allowed herself the luxury of wondering about it. She saw what happened to her predecessor. And he wielded Anne's fate over Jane like a weapon on at least one occasion that was recorded. Jane likely lived in fear of Henry. She is one of the wives I feel the saddest for. She went into the last months of her life with the same fear all women had when attempting childbirth in such a dangerous era. On top of it, she had the terror of knowing that she might be doomed anyway if the child came out with the wrong genitals like Henry's last child. Sadly, she died 11 days after giving Henry the thing he wanted to desperately. This timing alone is the reason she was remembered as his sainted, loyal wife. I think he would have eventually become jealous of Jane's influence and relationship with their son if she had lived to raise him. Being the mother of a future king made a woman more and more powerful the older that son got. Who knows what sort of fate she would have met if she had lived long enough to clash with Henry over their son?
Your thoughts on Henry's and Jane's relationship are so interesting and I think that's what most likely happened between them! I wish Jane Seymour would be depicted more as a victim of emotional abuse instead of a romantic, saintly figure. Even if you can judge her for deciding to marry a man who recently killed his last wife, she couldn't have possibly been having any fun in that situation.
It's interesting to imagine what Jane might've done with Edward had she been able to raise him. Edward was very much influenced by his Protestant uncles but Jane was a devout Catholic and she might've been in a position to be regent if she outlived Henry. Henry would never dare make the legitimacy of his only trueborn son questionable if he divorced or killed Jane but if they disagreed on how to raise Edward, Henry might've forcibly separated them like he did Katherine of Aragon and Mary.
I think Henry was taken with the romantic idea of marrying CoA. It wasn't needed for the kingdom's stability, her position was much weaker than when she married his brother due to her mother's death, he could easily have married some other royal daughter who'd actually deliver a dowry if "transactional" was all he was after. I think he probably did see himself as her knight in shining armor, he was very into the whole chivalry stuff in his youth.
For CoA, it was the best case scenario, so I can see the transactional angle playing a much stronger role for her.
What a wonderful thoughtful post! You’ve mirrored my thoughts about Henry & his first 3 wives in an interesting & thorough way. The detail about your ancestors is really interesting. How did you find out about that? Was it passed down in your family?
Your thoughts come very close to my own, thank you for such a thoughtful post.
I think Anne, although brilliant, toward the end became overconfident in the security of her marriage; she thought she was safe enough to joke around with her courtiers because she had proven that Henry would risk war and excommunication for her sake and she had likewise proven her own constancy by waiting so long to be queen. The question of what would have happened to her if her last pregnancy had resulted in a living son is a fascinating mystery that all the Tudor scholars love to speculate about, but IMO Henry's brain injury at the joust was actually a bigger factor than the miscarriage there.
Jane is a cipher to me. There's so much we don't know, and can never know, about her motives and interior life. I think people love speculating about her for that reason - there's such pathos and irony in the way she gave Henry the son he desperately needed, and then quickly died without getting to enjoy any of the security or praise that was the presumed result of bearing him a son. One of the long-term attractions of Henry's reign is that it's hard to invent more compelling drama than what actually happened.
I read an analysis that Anne’s wit and mannerisms were totally acceptable in the French court, but that were not as well received by KoA supporters in the more conservative English court. So this made it easier for Cromwell to frame Anne.
I think Henry loved Jane for the son she provided.
At that level of court there was mostly power plays. You could succeed as a man by being a cleaver adviser. As a woman you also had to be mistress/ wife to have that level of access to power.
I think Henry deeply wanted to be a loyal and loving husband. Wanted to be seen as a smart and good man.
That’s why he married CoA in the first place: he was restoring her to the rightful place as queen. It was considered incredibly romantic at the time. She also had a claim to the throne, so it was politically an excellent match.
If they’d had male children, or a decent option for an heir- Henry’s image would be very different.
Yes, I think Henry and his sisters were inspired by their parents' loving marriage and chased after that ideal, especially Henry. He was obsessed with tales of chivalry, after all. Of course, I think he would've always been a womanizer, even if his sons with Katherine of Aragon survived. A queen's duty was to give birth to heirs and it was considered unhealthy for a pregnant woman to have sex back then and Henry didn't have enough self-control to just wait nine months.
It was considered unhealthy for a man to hold his seed in. Kings were expected to have a mistress because of the whole no intercourse with a pregnant woman custom.
I just don't think it's possible to truly love the king as a human being, even if you were Anne Boleyn or Katherine of Aragon. I think that the concept of the king is too intertwined with the concept of divinity and the state, there's just too much at stake, and of course as women you literally had no status except who you marry. All of that together makes me feel like it's impossible to dissect any true feeling of love from the huge power imbalance. Would any of his wives marry him if were merely a duke or, even further, title-less? Probably not. Who knows?
I feel like this was also the case with the marriage of Prince Charles and Diana Spencer, which is similar to that of King Henry VIII and his wives due to it being largely a political match.
I listened to a great podcast on Diana and It definitely seemed like their courtship was very problematic
Was it You’re Wrong About?
Yup
I wish she had had the courage to call that wedding off at any point including up until she said I do.
She was so young.
I dont think her heartless reputation is because of people projecting Anne's reputation onto her. There's no way that you can get engaged to a man who that day had his former wife killed, and not be seen as heartless and unlikeable. Either she didn't care (possible), or she cared and was too weak willed to withdraw from the relationship (possible). Neither are likeable traits.
I dont think he loved her. She was a convenient brood mare, basically. Young and fertile with little else to offer. Plain, not particularly intelligent or charming, everything Anne was not. While Anne was by no means old and easily could have had more children, it was a lot easier to just find someone younger who would get there quicker and likely be able to produce more children over time. Then, she died before she pissed him off too much.
She also had that whole sly showing off of Henrys miniature to Anne episode.
I think she would have grown to love her position as the mother of the heir, and as the court favorite among Catholics who were resisting the reformation.
The song "Heart of Stone" from SIX: The Musical also emphasizes Jane's love for Edward.
I think at first Jane was flattered at the attention, but also had her eye on the ultimate prize - marriage - by way of restoring Mary to her rightful place. Any "love" (or even "like") she had for him was probably gone by the time he threatened her with Anne's fate. I think she could have been a player in her own right if she had lived longer/not died in childbirth. I don't think love was ever her goal.
It’s difficult to tell if any of the wives truly loved him as each relationship was so unequal with his having complete power over them. I also think Jane was only the favourite wife because she gave him his son and she died before she could do anything to turn him off her
I don't think he loves her while she was alive.
I think he IDOLIZED her once she had a son who lived
I think Catherine of Aragon is the only wife that actually loved him.
I think Jane saw it as political. Once Henry became interested in her, whether or not she loved or even liked him was immaterial. She got a very powerful card and chose to play it, hoping for the best. As Queen she could influence Henry, and hopefully undo the restoration, or at least save the monasteries. Plus she could promote her family. She failed with the monasteries, but if she had lived after Edward’s birth I think she would have tried again to slow or stop the reforms once she was safe with a son.
I also think Jane didn't actually know that Henry was a monster at this point. There are many nobles/royal figures at the time who brushed off Anne's execution as "well she probably didn't have sex with other men, but she was a bad person so that was her karma" i.e. most saw Henry as executing a mistress, even tho he's the one who anointed and crowned her
. Jane was not Anne - Jane was a "good woman". Except Henry showed Jane that he would drag her down to Anne's level, no matter how "good" she was or not.
I think Jane did, in her quiet unassuming way. It may have been political on behalf of her family, but I doubt Jane had any say in any of it. Henry adored her and some of that must have been reciprocated.
Henry didn’t really adore her while they were married. He was generous to her, no question, but he mainly saw her as Anne Boleyn’s opposite, meek and mild and submissive. He also made comments about wishing he’d waited because there were more attractive women at court just a few weeks after their marriage, and became frustrated when she didn’t get pregnant immediately.
When she did get pregnant he was very loving and kind to her, but it was when Edward was born that he really fell in love. Then she died at the moment of her greatest triumph, when Henry’s love for her was at its peak.
In death, she became his one true wife, the perfect Queen, and he idealized her. As another Redditor said to me in an earlier thread, after her death he loved the idea of Jane far more than he ever loved her in life.
Honestly - my theory is that she had been pregnant, since Henry up and married Anne privately and then had to remarry her because it had been too private. Why wouldn't he do the same with Jane? Especially given how
a) the actual evidence gathering/trial/et al was incredibly rushed. they didn't even get the DATES right. Like how hard is it to choose plausible dates of adultery?
b) he was insistent on having Anne not recognized as his wife via the annulment, even though he was murdering her for adultery. He could have just executed her and kept it pushing.
c) he actually had her executed (an anointed queen) when everyone thought he'd send her to a nunnery in Calais/the continent.
I think Jane was pregnant, hence the lazy ass but also incredibly rushed evidence gathering + trial, and then she had a miscarriage. Which is why he was such an abusive jackass to her within like a month of the marriage. Why he so easily threatened her over speaking up during the Pilgrimage of Grace.
Basically - I think he had Cromwell rush Anne's downfall while also smearing her with as many lies as he could about her sex life i.e. having sex with her brother/incest, a lowly servant (so eww to them), despoiling an honorable widower that was also Henry's friend + courting her cousin, etc - because Jane was pregnant while Anne was clearly alive and being called Queen.
No lol… she got on her knees and begged him to restore the monasteries and he yelled at her to get up and to mind what happens to queens that get involved in politics (meaning Anne Boleyn), he forgot his anger when she gave birth to his son
Henry loved his wives for what they could do for him not for who they were. He loved them until they didn't do what he wanted them to do or until they weren't what he wanted them to be. Since Jane gave him a living son, she did for him the one thing he wanted so she never "betrayed" him. In Henry's eyes, that makes her worthy of his love.
I think he thought he should love her the most because she gave him a son. I doubt she loved him, but maybe ?
I don't think that any of his wives past Catherine of Aragon truly loved him. They were pawns caught up in his deadly games. If the King takes a fancy to you, you're in it whether you want to be or not. As a young man, Henry was fit and charismatic, and apparently quite easy to love.
But after the head injury that made him so volatile, any woman spending time with him must have been terrified to some degree. Particularly after he executed Anne Boleyn, the woman he tore the country apart for. Can you ever truly love someone who you're that afraid of? Even Anne Boleyn likely didn't really love him beyond the early days of their relationship.
The single reason Jane Seymour was his favourite wife, in my opinion, was because she died giving him the legitimate son he was so desperate for. She didn't live long enough to disappoint him. He deified her afterwards because she made the ultimate sacrifice to give him what he wanted. I highly doubt Jane loved Henry beyond what her duty demanded of her. And the older he became, the less attractive he was as well, particularly with weeping sores and continually worsening temper and reputation for executions. It's hard to imagine a man like that being loved by anyone.
I think she loved having her head attached to her neck.
Jane died giving him a son, to me he just idealized her in his head as the one he was really in love with. And didn't have time to get bored and discard her. Since she was the only one who gave him a boy heir. Which didn't even really have a long reign. And it was Anne B. that gave him an heir that truly reigned and is forever alive in history. Personally, I will always believe Anne Boleyn was his true love. He was just so obsessed with her he had to kill her so he could punish her for his feelings that he could not control. Believing the gossip about her. And mostly, not giving him a son as promised.
I think the "one he loved the most" thing is a retrospective based on 1. her giving him a son, which is certainly what he wanted the most, and 2. dying before she could get into his bad graces, which happened to basically every woman he was with for any length of time.
Due to those factors, there's no indication in history that Henry didn't love her/stopped loving her. Exactly the same would be true for CoA if she'd died in childbirth with Mary, and ditto Anne with Elizabeth. Or if KH got pregnant and died off.
Hell, you might argue that his most beloved was KP, because he didn't divorce or otherwise get rid of her despite her not being pregnant, and he was married to her just a touch longer than to Anne. But his actual relationship with Anne was of course much much longer, and Henry was at the end of his life, and busy with a silly war in France for some of that. And he did fuck with her head about being arrested.
She married a man who changed England from Catholic to Protestant to marry a woman he just beheaded so he could marry her. Not only that, she was catholic. I don’t think there’s any loving that, she knew she had to play the game and I’m guessing was under pressure from her family.
Post Anne Boleyn’s beheading I think about this often. I think that displayed the power dynamics of the relationship very well. It’s hard to know if any of his wives post AB were in love with him because any display of the opposite could have led to their executions. Personally I don’t think Jane loved him loved him. I think she cared for him and his kids but I think Henry ruined any chance of him having a loving relationship like his parents through his treatment of his first two wives. Additionally by divorcing Katherine of Aragon and marrying Anne there was precedent for the queen to be overthrown by a new woman. Which I think played into Jane marrying him. We always align the Boelyns as scheming but I think the Seymours were the same. The portrayal of Jane and Henry as so loving and the Seymour’s as so good I think is due to Jane giving birth to Edward- a boy- and that colors a lot.
I think it's nearly impossible to determine to what degree anyone in history "loved" each other because the idea of romantic love is a relatively modern idea. A Monarch, or anyone in the aristocracy, would NEVER have thought "love" was necessary to marriage. Marriage was for diplomatic purposes, financial reasons, honor/duty purposes, power, protection, territory advantage and property ownership, etc. If the two people involved happened to like and care for one another and it evolved into some sort of "love" that was just icing on the cake, but it didn't mean fidelity. Henry, even though he was in the throws of "love/lust/adoration" for Anne Boleyn had mistresses. Did Catherine of Aragon "love" Henry? Or was it her duty as a devout and pious Catholic woman to defer to her husband to whom she was bound to in a sacremental marriage? Did Jane Seymour "love" Henry, or was she happy and willing to submit to what her family and Henry wanted? Would any of these people make the same matches and choices in a modern world?
There are several famous love stories throughout history. One such example was the marriage of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, Henry VIII's parents. Yes their marriage began to resolve socio-political tensions after the Battle of Bosworth, but contemporaries and historians all agree that their partnership evolved into a genuine love -- After Elizabeth of York's death, Henry VII was so devastated that he never remarried.
Personally, it’s hard to describe their relationship as “love”. Jane Seymour was really placed by Henry’s side by her ambitious family, in my opinion. I think CoA and Anne Boleyn were both strong women who were outspoken when it came to their opinions. Meanwhile, Jane seemed rather quiet. I think Henry liked how she contrasted from his former wives, and thought it made her special. I also think he was rather self-absorbed, and her quiet demeanor allowed room for his to shine more. To me, it seems like she simply wanted to play her role while getting hurt as little as possible.
I think it's worth noting that Jane was born around the time Henry married Catherine. So for most of her youth, Henry was a devoted and loving husband (and as loyal as a King could hope to be), the picture of courtly love. Then he had his beloved wife put aside while she desperately fought for their marriage, shunned his only daughter Mary and turned her into barely more than a servant, married Anne Boleyn, laughed at the news of Catherine's death, then in short order, had Anne Boleyn executed on what are almost universally considered trumped up charges, and then neglected his other daughter Elizabeth, left without even proper clothing, and God knows how many people dead or destroyed along the way on Henry's whim.
And you're just Jane. You have no powerful family like Catherine to protect you, in fact they are all propelling you forward. You do not have Anne's innocence/naivety, where she surely thought she had years left to try and bear a son (she was only 35 at most when she died, maybe just 29) but Henry cut her life short. You know the stakes and the limited time you have to deliver. You know both Catherine and Anne would have done anything to bear a son yet couldn't, that Henry has fathered only one male heir (Henry FitzRoy) and now it's your turn.
Imagine how TERRIFIED Jane must have been all the time. Wed to a monster mere days after he had his last wife executed and every month there was no son, the noose got tighter and tighter. My God no wonder she was sweet and patient and tolerant, she'd seen what happened to the woman who weren't.
Yeah, this is why I dislike interpreting Jane as some sort of heartless monster or manipulative schemer. I think after witnessing all of that, ANYONE would pick the route of "do everything that pleases Henry." I don't think you really need to be a mastermind to figure out the best way to survive being married to a tyrannical guy is do everything he wants without complaint.
Exactly. What choice did she have? She couldn't refuse him. She could only submit to his will, try to survive long enough to have a son and HOPE that was enough.
Because it may not have been. Jane died only days after Edward but in another timeline, maybe she survives, doesn't bear more sons, and Henry decides another wife might help guarantee his succession and has her executed too. He wouldn't even divorce her as it might jeopardise Edward's legitimacy. Better she be dead than divorced, he would rationalise.