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People have always given me the same mundane and unoriginal counterarguments to my statement. Though their counter arguments are factual, they fail to prove that Taiwan is a country.
Here is a rough list of what they tell me:
-Taiwan is self governing
-Taiwan has native Taiwanese people, Taiwan is not Chinese
-Taiwan wants to be independent
-The ROC came before the PRC
All these points that they mention are either half truths/irrelevant proofs. To understand what a country is, is in fact, quite complicated. According to Wikipedia, "A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity". But by that logic, Disneyland is a country because it is a distinctive part of the world and it is an entity of commerce that had its own currency, that has its own members of government, members of state (board of execs) and it is a distinct entity. But is Disneyland a country? No. So we have to look further than Wikipedia.
In 1933, the Montevideo convention sought to define what a country was. They settled that a country had:
-A permanent population
-A defined territorial boundary
-A government
-Ability to have diplomacy
Taiwan has all of these things, so that's settled right? It's over, checkmate, defeat. My argument has been completely thwarted and I have lost! Well, no quite... For any of you well knowledged internet nerds, you may have hear about places such as the Principality of Sealand, North Dumpling Island, the Republic of Molossia and many other states like these. These are all micro-"nations". They have a permanent population, they have a defined territorial boundary, they have their own governments/legal systems and they all have diplomacy with other unrecognized states. And yet, no one even considers these places to be countries.
You see, a country has two things: De facto rule and De jure rule. De facto rule is the physical presence and strength to exercise your will over a territory. De jure rule is the legal ability to exercise you will over a territory. All of these places I have mentioned are de facto states, not de jure states, because they lack the legal ability to rule themselves. Afghanistan, for example, has only de jure rule over the country but no de facto rule, as the Taliban now has total control of the country. So what gives you de jure (legal) rule over a territory? Well, most people can agree that official UN recognition is the gold standard to reach this goal. Historical, cultural and ethnic borders also help make nations. To undisputedly be a country, you need de facto AND de jure rule.
Sealand has its own passport, its own currency, its own legal system, a flag, a constitution, an anthem, its army (now disbanded) and its borders. Taiwan has these same things, except its a larger island than Sealand. So we can establish that Taiwan has total de facto rule over the island. But does Taiwan have de jure rule? Well, here are some facts:
-182 of 193 UN member states OFFICIALLY recognize the one China principle.
-97%+ of the Taiwanese people originate from Fujian, China. They speak Chinese, but have a different accent and still kept the traditional writing system (or use Hokkien). They celebrate things like Chinese new year and have close Chinese culture.
-Taiwan has never declared independence from China. The majority of the population support pan-blue (Basically saying that Taiwan is China) and pro-reunification parties (Taiwan is under the PRC).
Taiwan's government is led by the REPUBLIC OF CHINA. So tell me, if they want to be their own country, why do they have China in their name? Doesn't that make them Chinese? Well the answer is in fact, yes. In 1945, ww2 ended, the fierce, brutal and oppressive regime under the dictatorship of the Kuomintang had defeated the Japanese, alongside with the help of other nations and groups, such as the people's liberation army (PLA). The PLA had a dream of a prosperous China that would be a strong and powerful nation, like the one we have today. The KMT didn't like the fact that other political parties exist (go figure, its a dictatorship) so the two groups went to war. The KMT at least 10 million people during their leadership, the organization was very corrupt and the army was poorly managed. Warlords had ravaged the country before the war, showing how weak the ROC government was. Because of this, people flocked to join the PLA and abandoned the KMT forces. This resulted in the KMT losing the war and cowardly fleeing to Taiwan. Since then, they claim the war hasn't ended and that they still own the entirety of China.
To conclude, Taiwan is filled with Chinese people, the ROC has no legal jursidiction over Taiwan and the island has no right to be led by an independent country. The island had been Chinese for hundreds of years prior, and foreign interference had taken the island (then known as Formosa) away form the Chinese. Now, its time to make things right and bring it back.
This is not an opinion, but a fact. I do not hate the Taiwanese people, I love them very much. I understand their regards against communism and how they don't want to join a Communist country. But at the end of the day, the Island has no sovereignty, only de facto rule.
Mods, please don't take this down. Doing so will only show how biased you are and how you are weak to western propaganda and only listen to it. If you really want to take this post down, prove me wrong, and prove me otherwise. If you manage to convince me, I will switch teams and join the Taiwanese side.
Much love from 🇨🇦
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Strongest pro CCP cuck vs weakest taiwanese chad.
I'm not even pro CCP. The CCP have done terrible things (the ROC also did terrible things too). However, despite that, I can not refuse the the statement that Taiwan isn't a country. It is an unsovereign de facto state.
You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t. It’s not about opinion—it literally is a country, you can look it up, takes one second to do.
Just because western propaganda says something is a country doesn't mean it is.
It’s universally recognized as a country. It’s not about what you say. As if you said ‘’Pluto is a planet of the solar system’’—no, it isn’t, it’s a dwarf. Same thing here.
it’s not universally recognized as a country. where did you get this information from?
You know hyperbole?
It isnt universally recognised as a country. Only 11 UN member states recognise Taiwan. If you leave the western world (around 20% of the world population) most people agree that Taiwan shouldnt be self governing and it is in fact, not a country.
Who tf thinks it shouldn’t be self governing? You want it to be forced to do whatever China does? Why?
It actually doesn’t matter what the law says. International law has no enforcement mechanism, so the de jure definition of a country is irrelevant. Your de jure argument is an interesting philosophical exercise, but it has no relevance in real life.
Only the de facto status of a country matters. Taiwan can kill anyone who disrespects its borders. Therefore, Taiwan is a real country. Full stop.
So is Sealand, the republic of Molossia, north dumpling island and many other places countries? If I declare my backyard to be a country, make myself head of state, make a constitution, make a currency and passport, and other micronations recognise me, is my backyard a country?
So is Sealand, the republic of Molossia, north dumpling island and many other places countries?
No, those aren’t real countries. They can’t enforce their borders.
If I declare my backyard to be a country, make myself head of state, make a constitution, make a currency and passport, and other micronations recognise me, is my backyard a country?
No, because the US military would just kill you, and you wouldn’t be able to do anything to prevent it.
Those countries in fact do defend those borders. I remember that Sealand had a coup by rebels in 1978 and won. They very much enforce their borders. Costa Rica, however, has no standing army. They can't enforce their borders. As you put it, the US would just kill costa rica, and they wouldn't be able to do anything to prevent it. Does that mean Costa Rica iasn't a country and Sealand is a country?
valid point here, the US could theoretically kill a shit ton of weaker countries if they wanted to, does that make those countries irrelevant?
Thanks for the opinion. I disagree on principle but on a legal standpoint, yes it's true that Taiwan isn't recognised as a country. However, this has more to do with politics than the actual definition of a country.
At the end of the day, China is more valuable than Taiwan as an ally. It has one of the largest markets, a massive importer/exporter of nearly everything, and has a massive military influence. That last one is also a con however, since that means you can't exactly trust China if it has power over you. But it has power, hence you as a country would prefer making deals with it rather than being antagonistic.
Following that last point, people don't recognise Taiwan as a legitimate country is mainly because China doesn't recognise Taiwan as a legitimate country. And why would they? They are technically at war with one another. Taiwan doesn't recognise China as a country either, so does that mean China isn't a country?
Well, this is where it gets comically complicated. The country we call China isn't actually China. It's actual the People's Republic of China. Now, you might argue that that's the same thing but a truly unified China as a country doesn't exist. Taiwan also calls itself China but opts for Taiwan (for reasons I never checked), but it's still a China. So in reality, we have 2 China's with one having a greater presence than the other but neither can truly claim themselves as the real China until the other claims otherwise. So a true China is a myth.
The question on whether Taiwan is a real country or not is irrelevant. What's important is which China do you support; this will ultimately decide the answer for you.
Whichever "we support" doesn't matter. The UN decides that, at it has overwhelmingly supported the one China policy.
I'd argue that the UN's decision doesn't matter either. It's a matter of opinion, not fact.
So if the UN doesn't decide countries, who does?
The definition of country
First of all, the United Nations isn't a government and does not have the ability within international law to decide or determine who is and isn't a country. Directly from the UN:
Secondly, UN Resolutions are typically not considered part of international law, nor are they legally binding. They are "recommendations" and only become binding if ratified by each independent government within the United Nations. Again, directly from the United Nations :
Third, UN Resolution 2758 was simply a procedure that removed the KMT government from the China seat. It did not determine the overall status of Taiwan, nor did it recognize Taiwan as part of China. As a matter of fact, the Resolution doesn't even mention the words "Taiwan" or "Formosa".
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758
True. But since that resolution 182 UN countries have sided with the one china principle
No, they haven't.
You are falling for the PRC propaganda and implying that all countries agree with the PRC's "one China principle", when they don't.
Most countries instead have a "one China policy" that takes a position like the United States and consider Taiwan's overall status as "unresolved". They don't have diplomatic relations with Taiwan, nor recognize or consider it part of China.
What most Americans won't understand is that Taiwanese separation is a fringe belief in Taiwan. Both the PRC and ROC agree that there is "One China" the disagreement is over who is the legitimate government over it.
While everything you've said here is fair, it's not necessary. One needs only to point to the agreement between the two governments.
I don’t think it’s a fringe belief but I think it’s true that most people in Taiwan don’t care if its a part of china or not and most people in china also don’t care.
People in Taiwan do care a lot. They make it their whole personality. They say how they are the true China. Pan-green ideology is a minority in Taiwan.
We absolutely do care... Taiwanese are proud of our freedom and democracy, something we earned after rising up against a Chinese dictatorship that ruled the island under 4 decades of martial law. People here still remember when it was illegal to dance or listen to rock music... and you think we would be okay with going back to a government that rules like the PRC???
Dancing and rock musing has been allowed by the PRC. Actually, the United states has around 50 thousand federal laws. China has 20 thousand. The USA has 16 surveillance cameras per 100 people, China has around 13. Around 7500+ people have been arrested for the things they have said online in the western countries, it was around 400 for russia and 1000-10 000 in China, despite those countries having 2x the population. Around 2.4 million people in America are in prison, holding cells, guantanemo bay and military prisons. In China, that number is around 1.6 million, despite having 4x the population. American elections are rigged with their broken two party system, no ID voting, mail in voting and the fact that both parties are controlled by the deep state. The worlds highest top security spying agencies are all in the western world and Israel, with China's coming in around the 10th place. In both countries, they always spy and monitor what goes on on your phone. The american government puts down violent protests such as the one on january 6th, they random check muslims at the TSA and they violate personal privacy at the border and at the airport. if the FBI wants to abduct you and take you away for days on end, maybe you never even come back, they will do that easily. Of course, they will never publicly announce that until around 40 years later and label it as some "minor incident". China will do the same if you have been found guilty of a crime. The list of countries invaded by the USA since 1950 is around 3 pages long. the list of countries invaded by China since 1950 is around a paragraph. America has around 3750 nukes, China has 300. america has a military 5x stronger than china. tell me, who is the agressor? who doesnt respect rights? who violates us?
I hope that was a copy and paste.
Yes. One China only. Doesn't matter if it is the PRC or ROC. One single China.
Even the United States recognizes this in its joint communiqué with the People's Republic of China
The United States Government attaches great importance to its relations with China, and reiterates that it has no intention of infringing on Chinese sovereignty and territorial integrity, or interfering in China’s internal affairs, or pursuing a policy of “two Chinas” or “one China, one Taiwan.”
https://www.ait.org.tw/u-s-prc-joint-communique-1982/
so you agree Formosa is china?
As someone typing to you from Taiwan, I assure you this is not the case.
We do not have a "one China" policy here in Taiwan, and current Cross Strait policy is literally called "one country on each side":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Country_on_Each_Side.
Pan green coalition is ridiculous. many taiwanese intellectuals and the debaters i meet online are all chiangpilled and support KMT/pan blue ideas
Stop hanging out on TikTok... they aren't Taiwanese, they are Chinese.
Your understanding of Taiwanese politics is extremely lopsided and not based on reality. The KMT has won two presidential elections since democratic reforms, the DPP has won 5. Yet, in this thread, you have made the claim that the pan-blue positions are much more popular than that of the pan-green.
i hang out on discord. i agree that the greens are more popular among the new generation of taiwanese that are born on the island rather than in china. and this new generation is starting to make its own new identity for itself. however, most intellectuals (proffesional discord ramblers) from taiwan online and on the media claim all of china under the ROC and wont settle for just taiwan.
"One County on Each Side" is not a policy (nor does it change the Taiwanese constitution). It's a governing principle that the DPP holds. The DPP still relies on strategic ambiguity, though, and despite lots of calls from within the party to push for independence, polling regularly shows that the majority of the electorate favors the status quo.
The whole of China, Tibet, Mongolia, and parts of several other countries are included in what the ROC calls the "Mainland Area" and what that constitutes and how it should be administered is the subject of multiple laws such as this one. Under Article 4 of the Taiwanese constitution, only a resolution of the National Assembly (and not a declaration by the DPP) can change these territorial claims.
Yes... The DPP and the majority of Taiwanese support the status quo. The status quo is a sovereign and independent Taiwan, officially called the Republic of China.
Under the status quo, Taiwan and China are countries on each side of the Strait. Taiwan is not controlled by China (PRC), and China is not controlled by Taiwan (ROC).
Also, the "Mainland Area" is not explicitly defined... And Article 4 hasn't applied since democratic reforms over 3 decades ago. The National Assembly itself was abolished in 2005.
Furthermore, the Constitutional Courts stated in Interpretation 328 that neither Article 4 nor Constitutional Law explicitly defined the territory. They said that Article 4 simply provided the instructions for defining the territory at that time, but wasn't a definition of the territory itself. See: https://law.moj.gov.tw/LawClass/ExContent.aspx?media=print&ty=C&CC=D&CNO=328
Fact is, the ROC has not claimed jurisdiction or sovereignty over the Mainland Area in decades. During democratic reforms, the claimed sovereignty over our government has been limited to the "Taiwan Area". The "Taiwan Area" is explicitly defined (from your link) as "Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and other areas within the direct control of the government" (指臺灣、澎湖、金門、馬祖及政府統治權所及之其他地區。).
Then President Lee Teng-hui even called these reforms his two-country solution:
Here is the official national map from the Ministry of Interior: https://www.land.moi.gov.tw/chhtml/content/68?mcid=3224
National Mapping and Land Survey Center: https://maps.nlsc.gov.tw/T09E/mapshow.action
"One China" typically refers to the PRC position that you can have diplomatic relations with the PRC, or the ROC, but not both. This is a roadblock put up by only the PRC. The ROC stated they are open to dual recognition since the 90's.
Here is a quote from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding dual recognition of both Taiwan and China at the same time by diplomatic allies:
cool stuff, how does that impact soveriengty? it just talks about taiwans political stance
Taiwan is a country, officially called the Republic of China.
Taiwan is the colloquial name.
Republic of China is the official name.
As for de jure positions, there is no one de jure position. De jure positions depends on who you asked. The ROC has de jure position. The PRC has another de jure position. USA has another de jure position. Etc.
Also, your "facts" are extremely wrong.
No, they don't.
Very few countries agree with the "one China principle". Most countries have a "one China policy". The difference between these two terms is important. Most "one China policies" take a position similar to the United States, and do not recognize or consider Taiwan to be part of the PRC or China for that matter.
What world do you live in where this is true?
First, Taiwan doesn't need to declare independence when it is already independent.
Second, the KMT has won 2 out of the last 7 Presidential Elections... And the only party that supports unification with the PRC (New Party) hasn't won an election on the national level since 2005, and claims to have "about 500 supporters".
And let me conclude, as someone typing to you from Taiwan... It doesn't matter if we agree or not.
The reality is we are an independent country.
You're right, let me rephrase that:
"It [Taiwan] currently has formal diplomatic relations with 11 of the 193 United Nations member states and with the Holy See, which governs the Vatican City State, as of 11 May 2024."
There you go. See... finding a fact and simply reporting it without having to add extra lies and nonsense to it wasn't so hard. Why didn't you just do that in the first place?
The reality is not that you are an independent country, but rather than you are an autonomous de facto state. You only seemed to refute the points i have made regarding the political situation and the personal aspirations of the people. Can't you at least disprove what else I have said?
You can call us whatever you'd like.
Our reality is that we are a country, no different than any other country. We have our own government, passport, military and rule of law.
Did you neat read a single thing I said? Go and re-read my statements before inputting on the matter. You only have de facto leadership, not de jure. De facto ownership doesn't make countries.
Again, you don't understand the most basic aspects of international law. There is no single "de jure" position. Each government and country has a separate and independent "de jure" position on every single matter around the world.
Our position here in Taiwan is that we are already a de jure sovereign and independent country, officially called the Republic of China.
The de jure position of the PRC might be that Taiwan is a renegade province of the PRC.
The de jure position of the United States is that the government recognized as the Republic of China (Taiwan) before 1979 is still the governing authority over the island of Taiwan today.
All of these de jure positions exist at the same time, despite them all being different. The only position that actually matters is the reality, or de facto status.
Republic of Congo...Democratic Republic of Congo: two different countries.
Central African Republic, South Africa, Africa. Two different countries and a continent.
Equatorial Guinea, Guinea, Guinea-Bisseau: three different countries.
Sudan, South Sudan. Two different countries.
Are these countries you speak of engaged in civil war?
The People's Republic of China and the Republic of China are in a civil war.
So?
and the PRC has won. wikipedia agrees, the UN agrees, history agrees that the PRC has won the battle for china, so let them have china.
Yes, as a Chinese, I sincerely hope that the two sides can eventually reunite through peaceful negotiations.
you're right. however, south sudan does not claim the territory of sudan. the DRC does not claim the territory of the RC. the CAF does not claim the territory of SA and so on. except, the PRC claims the lands of Taiwan and the ROC claims the land of Mainland China. so who do we side with?
Didn’t you just ask if it was in the taiwan subreddit? I can’t respond to this without getting upset, so I’ll keep my not so kind words directed at you to myself.
Taiwan has a subreddit? C'mon, let out those not kind words. I know that I'll still be abl3 to prove you wrong.
Dipshit, you posted on it two days ago.
Oh yeahh... The Chinese subreddit about the country of China.
I’m glad you had such a fun Sunday, internet troll.
silence chinese fed
i'm a canadian highschooler bro tf
As a Canadian, I hereby revoke your Canadian status and exile you to the United States of America for your stupidity, or China because you seem to love it a bit too much.
i dont love china. i absolutely despise canada.
As an amadeus username haver, I revoke your priviliges to mozart ever. Have you even considered the arguments i made in my discussion?
Why would you despise Canada though? Compared to most places on Earth, it’s a great place to live.
Also, that doesn’t work—you don’t have Amadeus anywhere in your username
kinda racist no?
incredibly biased and racist to assume every single person with an opinion that goes against western propaganda has become a chinese fed. i dont go to taiwanese posts and say "FEBRUARY 228 MASSACRE" "10 MILLION KILLED BY CHIANG" "TAIWANESE BOT" etc. It just goes to show how wrong the other side are that they have to use callouts and slander rather than proving their points regarding sovereingty.
I know you have the taste of the CCP in your mouth
no, i only taste the drumstick caramel ice cream cone i am eating rn as i am typing this message