Hello, I'm Kirsty Young and this is a download from the Desert Island Discs archive. This edition may be slightly different from what was actually broadcast, but it is the only version we have. From the British Library's radio collection. The recording didn't contain the guests' eight music choices, so we rebuilt the original show by using discs from the BBC Gramophone Library. For rights... We've had to shorten the music. Full details can be found on the Castaways page on the Desert Island Discs website. The programme was originally broadcast in 1981 and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Our cast away this week is the actress Joan Plowright. Joan, how much does music mean in your life? It's meant a great deal in my life ever since I was a child. The house was always full of music. My parents were both very fond of me. Music though they couldn't play. You played of course, you played the piano. Yes I played, yes I was the middle one of three children, I have two brothers and we all played. Has that been useful to you in the theatre? Have you played on stage? Oh goodness, yes. I mean I trained at the Old Vic Theatre School which is a classical school and most classical plays need music and dance.

And singing. One is usually called upon to do a peasant dance or a song. Do you sing? Yes, I do. How well could you face up to isolation? I think I maybe could. I'm just saying could face up to it. I'm not saying well. Would music help this meagre allowance of just eight records? Tremendously. What's the first one you have there? Sibelius, the four legends, the most famous one I think, the Swan of Tornela. Why'd you choose that? It's The first time I heard it when I was a girl, it made an extraordinary impression on me. I was a teenager. There was a strange painting.

On my bedroom wall of snow-capped mountains, just a weird sort of landscape painting, by nobody at all known, I mean, not a famous painting. And this picture reminded me a little bit of that too, of the music. They tied up together. I used to dream a lot. That piece of music.

The opening of Sibelius' The Swan's. Of Tuonela, Sir John Byber Olly, conducting the Halle Orchestra. Now, you're from Lincolnshire, where about?

Well, actually, originally I was born in Brig. They're both in Lincolnshire, within a few miles of each other. And your father, a journalist? He was the editor of the local paper. Yes. He was the editor of the paper, first of all, in Brig, and then of the Scunthorpe and Frodingham Star. You went to a Scunthorpe grammar school. What were you good at? English, French in those days, not since. And were the school plays? Oh, yes, of course. And you enjoyed those? Yes. What did you want to be? Did journalism attract you? Yes, it did. I wanted to be all sorts of things. One time I wanted to be a dancer. I wanted to be a missionary.

I wanted to be a teacher. I was a teacher for about a year. Yes, now how did that come about? It was because I couldn't get into the Oviq Theatre School until I was 18. I had left school, just turned 17, and... I was going to be given a grant by the Lindsay, as it was called then, the Lindsay Education Authority, to go to drama school, and it was... Time they'd ever given anybody a grant for that. It took quite a fight to get it out of them. They would give me a grant if I used my high school certificate to go to college or to university, but they were not keen to use it to go to drama school, and it was the headmaster of the grammar school who persuaded them. So in gratitude for that, I did a year as a supply teacher. I see. Now, why the theatre, Joan, was there any one

Moment, one particular performance you saw, when did the blinding light strike you and you decided you had to be an actress? I can't remember when, I mean it's been as long as I've ever known that I've loved it, wanted to do it, possibly because my mother did. I used to, from being a baby, I watched my mother in the Amateur Dramatic Society. We had to have a spaniel for a long time flush when she played Elizabeth Barrett Brown. She was also in the operatic society. I mean the house was full of it really, full of longings, yearnings, aspirations towards ballet, music and drama. And off you went to the Old Vic school. Before we talk about that, let's have your second record.

That to be? The second one is the Beethoven sixth. It took me a long time to choose between the fifth and the sixth. They were the first I heard when we were taken out to hear our concerts in Lincolnshire, in Leeds actually. But I would rather have the sixth to live Time.

The opening of Beethoven's sixth symphony at the Pastoral, Otto Klemperer conducting the Philharmonia Orchestra. Now the old vic Theatre School, off you went to London. Some very distinguished names were working there, especially the teachers. Yes. George... De Veen, Glenbigham, Shaw, Michel Saint Denis, all three ran the school. It was quite a small school, wasn't it? Yes, it was. There were several courses, we all worked together in a way that I think rarely happens in other schools. There was a director's course, a stage manager's course, a designer's course, as well as the actor's course. How closely did you work with the theatre? Did you walk with the theatre?

On as students in the productions? No, not actually, not until the third year. This was that came in a little bit later, you did a two-year course, and if you were chosen for the third year, or wanted to do it... You then joined the Old Vic Theatre Company and played small parts as you say and walked on. What was your very first professional appearance? in a professional company or when myself as a professional? I mean I appeared first of all in the Harry Hansen Repertory Company in Scunthorpe. Because I won the Harry Hansen drama trophy at the drama festival and the prize Was to appear in that week's play with him his repertoire. And what was that week's play? I can't remember. It was a dreadful play. That was before the Elvig? Oh yes, I was only 15. Dreadful play and it was really rather a tatty company. Everybody was playing cards and missing their entrances. Oh dear. Yes, it was not very dedicated.

Well now, after your training, what was your first appearance? My first appearance after my training was in a late night review, actually. It was Ian Carmichael in... there were two little theatres called the Watergate Theatre and the Irving Theatre. Yes, I remember. Yes, you used to do late night review. I did about a three week stint there with two friends from drama school. Then I went. You see, I don't know, I've always said the first was a character called Hope in a play called If Four Walls Told at Croydon Rep. Oh yes. One really except for this little tiny three-week stint in the evening which nobody knows about. No. Grand Theatre Croydon, what happened then? Well then I went into the Old Vic Theatre Company. I did a whole year as a fairy and understudy.

And again, I mean a Midsummer Night's Dream fairy we replaced the boys. Guthrie had had a lot of boys in one of his productions and the boys had to go back to school so professional actresses last had a chance and you were at the Bristol Old Vic too, that beautiful theatre yes yes I did I went there actually after touring South Africa with the Old Vic Theatre Company what was your first West End appearance? My first West End appearance was a transfer from the Bristol Old Vic of The Duenna put music by Julian Slade, though not for very long. And you were in Orson Welles's rather sensational production of Moby Dick. Indeed, yes. I had auditioned for Orson when he was doing Othello.

And he nearly gave me the part of Bianca. And then he didn't. He took a film star instead. So I think when I came back to audition for Pip the Cabin Boy, he felt some remorse. He gave them the part. You had a rather upsetting press notice from Ken Tynan. Oh, God, yes, I did. That hurt? Well, it was the first I'd had. You see, when you're sort of promising-- and you never dream that anybody's going to dislike you. But Mr. Wells gave you some sensible advice about that. Yes he did. Two or three bits of advice actually. First of all, how dare you presume you will please everybody, when I was sulky about notices. Another thing he said, which I've found interesting since, he said... One thing you ought to remember if you're going to go on in this profession and get there and make it and stay there, that every night...

When you go on, step onto a stage, there will be a certain percentage in the audience who do not go for your chemistry. He said, If they don't go for your chemistry, make sure they admire your skill. And he was quite right. Splendid. Well, then what? You did a season in Nottingham. Yes. Yes. It was a good leading part. Yes, yes, I don't remember much. I did a Euston off-play. I turned down for St. Joan, but I did it late. Your third record? I'm going to choose something by William Walton. It's very difficult to know what to choose. He is a friend and he'll be very cross that I don't choose something weightier in his later work, but I have a special sort of feeling about facade.

Have it without the speaking because I shall do the speaking to it myself on the island. I'd like the orchestral version. And which section shall we hear? We'll hear the...

Popular song. popular so-

From William Walton's facade suite and a tol fisztulare conducting the Royal Opera House Orchestra. Now the next move in your career, Joan, was an important one. You joined the Oh yes, yes it was very strange to me that I'd trained totally at a classical school, I mean in classical work, but eventually made my name in contemporary theatre. The Royal Court. Rebellious or was it just another job that was turning up? No, I was not really an angry young woman, I probably became one, mixing with them all. It was a link from my training, my student days, with George Devine. It was George Devine who wrote to me, I believe I was in Nottingham Rep.

And said he was forming this company and he wanted a certain kind of actor and actress in it and he wanted me to come along and do an audition because Tony Richardson, his partner, did... No, me hadn't seen me. He wanted me in the company, but I had to just do something for Tony. It was essentially a writers' theatre. Oh, goodness, yes. Though it became a very special place for actors, too. Tell me about some of the playwrights in whose work you played there. The first two actually were novelists, and they weren't... didn't make the name of the theatre particularly. Nigel Dennis, Angus Wilson, wonderful writers, but not for that particular theatre. But Osborne, Wesker, these were the two main ones, of course, at the time I was there.

Transferred of course you went into John Osborne's The Entertainer and that moved up to the palace into the West End yes yes well other things transferred actually both the Country Wife which was my first success there that again was a classical revival was the one they put on at the end of the day End of the first year to make money because the others had lost it. That transferred to the Adelphi, then roots transferred to the Duke of Yorkes, and yes the entertainer went to the palace. Roots of course, on Wesker's roots you made a tremendous success in that, a personal success. Yes, that was very very close to my heart, that particular part. I shall be forever grateful. Arnold for writing it. And not only did John Osborne's The Entertainer go to the West End, it also went to New York and you with it. Was it in that play that you met the man who was to become your present

Lawrence Olivier? Yes indeed it was. I was playing in The Country Wife when he was going to do it. He came to see that and George suggested that I should do it. I actually left the... Cast in London to go to New York first because I was doing the double bill of UNESCO in Broadway just off Broadway And then the entertainer came over and I rejoined it. We were there for quite a long time. Now you had five or six years of so-called revolutionary drama. The Royal Court, and in the middle of it you went off and played in a West End comedy with Robert Morley, Hook, Klein, and S Tinker. That must have been a splendid contrast. Yes it was. Yes, as you say, I'd probably been there three to four years. I'd had a wonderful time. It was an exciting, optimistic period that time at the Royal Court, but very hard work for us. We were doing about six or seven...

A year. So one was rehearsing all day as well as playing at night. I had made a name Robert hopefully thought would help in the West End, so he started to come along at night and bring flowers and boxes of chocolate, and asked me to be in this boulevard comedy which he'd translated from the French. It down several times. I mean, he really sort of broke down my initial reluctance by offering to conduct rehearsals in the south of France, on the beach. A splendid idea. Oh, it was wonderful. I think he had to pay for it later, but it was marvelous.

Well good, that was a splendid moment. Let's pause there and have record number four. It's very good to move from Robert Morley to Peter Sellers, because my next one is a little bit of light comic relief from Peter Sellers. It's also rather indicative of an attitude at the Royal Court that time, and it's a scene or a sketch from... A record he made called Fool Britannia. Prime Minister, wake up! Why not, huh? The following three men are homosexual spies working for England in Russia.

William got what? The wrong piece of paper. Wrong piece of paper. Oh yes, I got the wrong piece of paper. Peter Sellers on a disc of the early 60s, full Britannia. Joan, after your rebellious phase, you had a rather high class period at the opening of Chichester Festival, Chesterfield. The festival, Edinburgh Festival, and then you joined the National. Yes. That was the beginning of the National. Yes indeed it was. Exciting days. Oh wonderful days, but fraught too. You had what, a ten year run of playing some really wonderful parts? St. Joan, for example. Oh, St. Joan, yes, absolutely. Marsha, three sisters. Sonia, Uncle Vanya. Portia, the merchant of Venice. And then, after the next... From your Italian period, two long-running plays by De Filippo.

Well, that did start at the National, of course. Zeffirelli, who had also done Much Ado About Nothing, his very splendid version, which displeased some of the critics but very much entertained the audience, had become a friend and a colleague. And he, with Kenneth Tynan, who was the literary advisor, then decided that-- It was time de Filippo was known in this country. And I think the reason he never was has never been a good translation before. Saturday, Sunday, Monday was the first one they chose with Willis Hall and Keith Waterhouse to do a translation. Of course it was a huge success. That transferred to the West End. That transferred to the West End.

And during that time Tynan and Zefarelli suggested to me that I should do Filomena. Which had a very successful run. Very Italian, not only the production but your performance. Do you know Italy well? I do, yes. Apart from first going out to Ischia to stay with William Walmsley. And Susanna. Also, I spent a lot of time studying the Neapolitans by having holidays with them. Zefarelli and Positano, and one would go into Naples and watch the people the plays were written about. And Zef has a great, I call him Zef Franco, a great feeling for Naples and for the Neapolitan He was of enormous help to us. Yes indeed. Record number five, what's that to be? Well, I would very much like it to be Laurence Olivier doing...

One of the songs from The Entertainer, A) of course it was the play in which we met, B) it was a great part for him. He himself adored it. Dinan said Osborne had written one of the greatest parts of this century. I believe it was too. And... I know it may seem wrong to choose that instead of Henry V, but it does have a particular special appeal for me. I'd like, why should I care? And this is from the Sun.

Track of the film version. The film is made by the voice of Laurence Olivier. practically your entire career has been associated with success. You've just had the experience of being in a western flop. Has that shaken you away? Much no it's quite wrong to say my entire career has been associated with successes I used to do lots of avant-garde plays at the Royal Court where people up to their seats and left the theatre like the chairs.

People used to stand up and shout surrealist rubbish at us. And we were quite pleased. We thought that was what we were there for. Now nobody is shouting surrealist rubbish, and one or two critics probably have this time, but they haven't quite taken the play, or some of them, it's very difficult to know. They haven't taken it to their hearts, let's say, quite obviously.

It would have run longer. Well the play we're talking about of course is In Joy Yes. By Alan Bennett. That's right. The opinions do differ. There are people who think it is a wonderful evening. They haven't quite said it's a wonderful play because it has faults I suppose. And there are others who think it is too flawed. As actors we don't mind that you see. To us it's an experience to get an exhilarating original script which is fascinating to work on yet you may not quite know how it's going to end. In fact one didn't quite know how this play was going to end. In Joy it had two or three endings and we had to finally settle on one to open. But the whole experience for us was and

me, particularly at this moment in my career, an extremely worthwhile one. I was a little bit tired of being in safe successes. And you've been able to renew your partnership with Colin Blakely, the partnership you had Yes, that's right. Yes. You've played so many classic roles, are there any that you've missed which you still want to have a shot at? Well, there are some that I've missed and I'm not sure I still want to have a shot at. And you've never done Shakespeare's Scottish Lady, have you? Ah, now that one I could still have a shot at. Yes, quite possibly. There was another one that I was asked to do by both Jonathan Miller and Dexter, and time has gone by. That's the Lady of the Nile. Yes. And I'm actually quite glad it's gone by because Glenda did it, everybody's done it.

Now and it's too late but the Scottish Lady yes that might be a possibility Films haven't played much of a part in your life. No There was a time back in the fifties I think before you went to the Royal Court when you were offered a seven-year contract. You turned it down. Yes, it's true. It was a strange time after playing the country wife because I played it opposite Lawrence Harvey who was a big film star at the time. And I was asked if I... Would sign up and do this script in a modern version of a country girl coming To London and Lawrence Harvey was going to be the man about town. It all sounded rather

My agent was also very clever, I think, saying, You start off in films like that, you will most likely be typecast as that. In the theatre, you need not be typecast. There is that willing suspension of disbelief. You can play many, many things on stage and across the footlights to an audience that you cannot play on the screen. You can impersonate on the stage. You have to just exist on the screen. You haven't bothered very much with television either. It's always been the theatre. Yes, it has. It has been a bit to do with my personal life.

While Larry was at the National Theatre and I was there helping him and running a family and home, it was not very easy to take on extra jobs. Quite, yes, you have got through a vast amount of work in your career to date but you also have to be Lady Olivia occasionally and as you say bring up three children. Yes, yes. You're obviously a very well organized person. My staff might not say that at home. Your husband is busy writing his autobiography, how's that going? I think it's going very well. I know he's behind, but then people writing over seem to be behind. Say he's about halfway. What are your plans next? I'm reading three plays at the moment. One by Arnold Wesker, an old friend, and also...

Television script. I have also been commissioned to write my autobiography which will include of course the Royal Court time and Chichester and the National Theatre and yes I'm looking forward to that too. Well it's all decisions isn't it and you are faced with an immediate decision, your sixth record. I wanted to a modern musical and the one that made the deepest impression on me was West Side Story. It was on when I first went to America to play on Broadway and that was an exciting time and the musical I'm afraid was the version of Romeo and Juliet that made me cry the most.

That, of course, was a rather jolly number. I feel pretty. Not one of the more emotional ones, like Maria or-- or somewhere. And that was from the soundtrack of the film. Of the film. Let's go straight on to your seventh record we've got to. Yes, now I had a terrible problem here of choosing between the Beatles Who, because of the sort of revolution they made in music, which I liken...

Rather to the revolution at the Royal Court that we made in drama so I felt sort of a kinship with them. I also like their records but I have got a very great liking for the soundtrack music of The Graduate the film The Graduate by Simon and Garfunkel and it's the sort of record I can put on when people are coming into dinner or I can sit and read with 'Alright' while it's on. I just love it. And what's this number called? It's called The Sounds of Silence. Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk with you ♪ Left its seeds while I was sleeping ♪ ♪ And the vision ♪

♪ Was planted in my brain ♪ ♪ Still remains ♪ Simon and Garfunkel. Have you ever visited the tropics, Jo? No, I've been to Semitropics, which is Barbados. Ah, I mean, how would you be, looking after yourself on a desert island, have you garnered any ideas during your travels? No. No, I can't think of anything that would make me completely self-sufficient on an island.

And I should have to trust my wits. - You could rig up some sort of shelter. Were you ever a girl's-- - I think so. - A girl guide? - I was a girl guide. Oh yes, I was, thrush patrol. I can make a fire. - Yes, and tie knots. - I can tie knots, I've done all that. - Would you try to escape? - Oh yes, I guess I would, you know. - Do you know anything about small craft, about navigation? - No, nothing at all, but I would have to rig up signs to wave at passing ships. Hopefully. Smoke signals, I might do. Right. And record number eight now, your last. My last one is to do with something we talked about earlier actually because it's the dance I did in Roots. There's a scene in Roots where B.T. is trying to explain the value of classical music to her mother, all the better things in life. And she plays this record, Bizet.

Answers finally to it. Now I haven't actually chosen that particular dance because... I'm also very fond of the music of Carmen and I love the opera. So instead of the 'Alisienne' which was the dance and roots, I've chosen the dance poem 'The End of the Carmen Suite'.

A passage from Bizet's second Carmen Suite, Leonard Bernstein conducting the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. If you could take only one disc out of the eight, which would it be? Oh dear, that is so difficult. But I would obviously, I think, go for the Beethoven which would be similar to my Shakespeare. I mean, I do have the the works of Shakespeare. Oh you do indeed, yes. You have the works of Shakespeare and the Bible. And you're allowed to choose one book apart from those two. Well I would like to take all the works of Aldous Huxley. No, one book. I thought having... oh, one book. Yes, I don't know what we'll do. We'll bind a couple together if that'll help you. Two Aldous Huxley books. Three. Three.

Well, three. We'll settle for three. Three bound together into one volume. Which? Well, it would have to be Point Counterpoint, Chrome Yellow, After Many a Summer. Right, that's your three. Dies the Swan, or whatever it is. No essays? No, just three books. We're cheating as it is. And one luxury to take with you. Well, the luxury would be the piano. Then I can play those carols that I haven't been able to include in the program. And thank you Joan Plowright for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you, Roy. Goodbye, everyone. You've been listening to a download from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more downloads, please visit our website.

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