Subreddit dedicated to British-American filmmaker Sir Christopher Nolan, known for Oppenheimer, The Dark Knight Trilogy, Interstellar, and Inception
The Dark Knight Trilogy
According to Johnathan Nolan in The Art and Making of The Dark Knight Trilogy, Batman isn’t the protagonist of TDK - Harvey Dent is (see below link for image)
Meanwhile, Batman is unequivocally the PoV character in TDKR. Everything is from his PoV, at no point does he feel secondary
The costume designer for the trilogy also thinks that TDKR is much more about Bruce than TDK ever was (see below link)
I don’t think it’s just a case of Batman being overshadowed in TDK, but rather his pov isn’t emphasised as much. We don’t spend much time with him to dwell on his thoughts and feelings in that film. Things just happen and he reacts
Whereas Batman Begins and TDKR are definitely concerned with Bruce’s psyche, PoV, etc
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Yeah it might be a little bit. Bruce goes on a more emotional journey that is directly related to the story than TDK.
Some screenwriting gurus say that the main character (POV) & the protagonist don't necessarily have to be the same person.
Dent is the POV main character who requires an emotional/moral arc, while Wayne/Batman is the protagonist, driving the plot & having 'the mission.' Joker is the antagonist, who hinders that mission, and does so by destroying Harvey Dent, the most relatable/POV character.
The non-traditional structural choices in TDK (including 5 acts over 3) are part of why it's so unforgettable.
Best answer. The first film had these 3 villains (scarecrow, Ra’sh, falcone). The second film had 3 protagonists (Batman, Harvey, Gordon).
In both films the characters represent different things, but having the protagonists like TDK — especially Harvey’s story falling from the white knight, made the movie just unforgettable
Flip those around - Dent is the protagonist, Bruce is the POV character. Dent makes the moves that effect major changes over the course of the film.
Bruce/Batmans biggest choices that effect the story have been done off screen as a result of the first movie and between the end of that movie and the beginning of Dark Knight, the consequences of which is organized crime turning to less organized criminals to fight back against Batman.
But the actual choices and actions of the film are largely made by Joker, Dent and sometimes Gordon, but Batman is treated as an unyielding reactive force that the film that proceeds to dissect and criticize and then punish him for, which demands growth and change whether he chooses it for himself or not (he doesn’t, until it’s too late, which is why he’s only left with two choices at the end: either the joker wins or he personally loses - he let the others control the action for too long)
I find it really interesting how in TDK, Bruce isn’t the protagonist, then in TDKR, he unashamedly is. Like the film really brutally reminds you how TDK affected him. We get glimpses of it in TDK but he’s so stoic that we don’t process how he feels. The film is so fast moving. But in TDKR, we are shown the real aftermath and impact those events had on Bruce. It was so awesome to see Bruce in the narrative driving seat again in TDKR
It’s a clever trick to subtly draw attention to him not being a complete person and him living in a distanced way from everyone else. Bruce Wayne is a spectator to Batman’s life like Batman is a spectator to others lives. It’s an excellent example of making a character a POV character in order to service the story and the development of that character
On point and fascinating! I never thought of TDK having a 5 act structure until you mentioned it. Do you know where I can read more about that?
I feel like we’re living in this film now 😂…..😪
TDK is more of an ensemble movie. Are Wayne’s parents or his origin as Batman even referenced in TDK? Or even a bat? Wheras TDKR focused into the character of Wayne, his reaction to the events of TDK etc. and then it brings back the League of Shadows, Ral’s Al Ghul’s successor and daughter, puts Wayne in a pit that’s reminiscent of the well he fell in as a child, bats and all. Feels much more closer to Begins, which I actually always liked, the ‘fullcircleness’ of it.
Yes, TDKR is the most comic book-esque of the 3.
Bruce absolutely goes on a journey in TDK. He's definitely changed. They may not have intended him to change *that much* but he definitely is changed.
I wouldn’t say it as “going on a journey” but more “making a choice”. He spends the entire movie struggling with the choice, trying to put off making the choice, and ultimately has the choice made for him through his indecision
He definitely makes a choice, it's not made for him. He doesn't have to take the fall for Harvey's crimes. Unless you're referring to a different choice.
Yeah that’s the choice he’s ultimately forced to make in the end, but through his indecision his options are limited. The choice he keeps putting off is about identity - you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. It’s the theme that applies to both the protagonist (dent) and the pov character (Bruce/batman).
Harvey keeps making choices to be the hero, but because his moral code isn’t as staunch as Bruce’s, his choices lead him to becoming the villain that Bruce takes the fall for so he can remain a hero.
Bruce keeps putting off the choice to become a hero, but because his moral code is more staunch than Harvey’s, his lack of choice leads to him becoming the hero that sacrifices his reputation so that Harvey can remain a hero.
Because between these two characters and their struggle with their identity, there’s the joker, who has no qualms about his identity, he’s so committed to his joker identity that he literally doesn’t even have an alter ego in the film like the other two do. He is in control for the entire film and drives the entire plot, thus leaving the protagonist and the pov character with limited options - they don’t get to make the choices they wanted to make, because of either their moral failing or failure to act.
Identity and the indecision about identity are the core themes of the film, which is why the main characters are someone with an alter ego, someone who transforms from one identity to the polar opposite one, and someone who is so pure in their identity nobody can even figure out who they were before they became it.
And the way these identities inform the choices they make, they refuse to make, or they struggle to make creates the driving drama of the entire plot
I love this breakdown, really well written. I would still say that Bruce goes through a journey, it's just that his decision is made at the very, very end of the movie whereas normally, the choice of the "main character" is made towards the end of the second act and going into the third. I suppose we can disagree that Bruce has the choice taken from him, because he absolutely doesn't.
Because of that strong moral code, he has the choice to let Harvey take the fall for the crimes he's committed. He actually compromises that code by taking the fall, and in essence, letting an innocent man be blamed for a guilty man's crimes. His overall journey, while including what you said, is also about whether a moral code can and maybe should be flexible versus rigid. That's the purpose, to me, of the interrogation scene with the Joker.
Joker is pointing out his belief that Batman isn't actually someone who is rigid to his code. His statement that when the chips are down, people will eat eat other is relevant to Batman's decision later. It's also why Joker says he wasn't going to risk the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight. He targeted Rachel because he believed Dent and Batman were the same person and then realized he could win either way once he found out they weren't the same person.
Bruce realizes at the end that in order to accomplish the greater good, a moral code sometimes has to be able to be flexible.
This is what's later used/examined during Bane's recitation of Gordon's speech and the exchange between Blake and Gordon in the hospital. Gordon's pointing out that they needed Batman to do what he did to try to stem the tide. Blake meanwhile, who previously has stated that he didn't believe that Batman actually killed the people he was accused of killing, finally finds out why and has his faith in Batman, Gordon, and the system itself, truly damaged.
“Explained by Goyer”
“According to Jonathan Nolan”
Cmon OP
Typo but Goyer co wrote the films
Definitely. TDK is more of a Joker movie, even though in pre-prod they might've aimed at the Dent centric one, Heath just stole the whole show.
Yeah, I’d agree with that.
I see the trilogy as a single movie
Yes, it was the most comic book version of a Batman movie of Nolan's trilogy. It was also my least favorite of the three. Not sure that was a factor at all, just turned out that way.
I think Begins was the most comic book esque
TDKR ends with Batman carrying a bomb away to safety. Classic Adam West material.
“The Dark Knight” is definitely villain focused. Of course Batman is a huge part but not the focal point. In “The Dark Knight Rises” however we follow him the whole way through, and Batman/Bruce is tested far more; undergoing a fair bit of character development, while I would say he is fairly static in the Dark Knight. Aside from maybe after Rachel dies.
I just wish someone would tell us who the protagonist of Tenet was 😪
No. Not at all. Dark Knight Rises is a pro-cop, pro-gun, shit show with plot holes you could drive a Tumblr and a truck loaded with bombs through.
The idea that TDKR is a right wing movie is nonsense. The film was written before occupy Wall Street and Nolan has commented that it’s left wing if anything.
Well, his ideas of left wing are wrong, I guess. If by left wing you mean centrist Copologist b.s.? Sure.
There’s nothing “copology” about it either. The trilogy as a whole is deeply critical of the institution and portrays them as corrupt to the highest level in BB and TDK. The first half of TDKR portrays them as incompetent buffoons. The cops in the latter half rise up to what they should be… which was a theme set up in Begins, that is what if the institutions actually fought for the people etc. This was an idea that was talked about in the previous films and comes full circle in the finale
The idea that it’s right wing is actually a very lazy criticism, especially considering TDKR predicts the rise of Trump
He also says here that the film isn't intended to be political, but that if it is, it is left leaning sympathies. He likens Bane to Trump, which I think is interesting. Because I don't think Bane was supposed to be an indicmtnet of Occupy movement. It was a warning that a populist could appeal to these messages for their own nefarious gain. And I think its pretty telling that Trump actually quoted Bane word for word in his speeches. Almost as if what Nolan foresaw came to pass.
The movie is definitely not critical of police with militarization funding and I would say an actual cop getting the keys to the Batcave is the most Copaganda thing I can imagine in a Batman movie.
I’m aware of the quotes. There’s also lots of different ideologies in conservatives just like in liberalism. Idk if I’d say the film “predicted” Trump, but I think it delivered on its bare-bones premise that demagoguery is bad and an era of anti-truth is counter productive for society.
My criticisms of the movie is that they are almost hilariously oblivious to the actual damage overfunded, militarized police in gigantic urban settings incur. This is my general critique of Batman, in fact. Many of the comics have Batman questioning police but then also Wayne tech just relentlessly flooding their department with R&D supplies.
But this movie is the most wild realization of that. The other wild inaccuracy is that the cops didn’t join Bane.
Boston is considered a liberal city (hot take: it’s pretty Purple) but the Boston’s Fraternal Order of the Police are wildly pro-Trump/Fascist.
Honestly, over the years and with several rewatches, the Nolan films have fallen out of favor with me. One of Batman’s best attributes is his insistence that the police force in Gotham is untrustworthy and dirty. Gordon, who works closely with Batman because those accusations are true, is usually “the one good cop” in Gotham.
Nolan’s films have Batman deal with the one dirty Detective Flass and then there’s some muck during the big Gordon-swap in TDK. That’s about it. For the rest of the movies the Gotham Police are more respected than NYC officers from late 2001-onward.
Idk, … I liked how Reeves handled it. That they want to be good but there’s not a lot of opportunities to be that. But Batman creates those opportunities.
I have been saying for years now I wonder what the world would’ve been like if Nolan got SUPERMAN instead. I think it would’ve better suited his ideologies and story telling tendencies. But it’s not grounded enough for his interests, I don’t think.
Anyway, I find TDKR to be lazy in its script. Full stop. The visuals and technical stuff is great. But the movie is just cops being the heroes for Batman while he’s in a pit and then he gets out of the pit and then his secret plan to beat Bane is to not get punched as much during the next fight.