Back in the 90s, Labour were being lead by a guy called John Smith. People were starting to think, with the Tories already losing authority, that he'd be the next Prime Minister. But then, 30 years ago today, he suddenly dropped dead from a heart attack. A twist of fate that led to Tony Blair becoming Labour leader and getting all the credit for his party's renaissance.


Thought it might be worth doing this thread to get the feelings of people who were there at the time, but if John Smith did become PM as everyone expected, would the UK be in a different place now? (I personally doubt it, things like the Iraq War would have still happened and Blair might have been the next leader in waiting after Smith, but it's an interesting thought experiment.) And if you were there at the time, what was your opinion, good or bad, of a man who I've heard described as 'The greatest leader we never had'?

My Mum still talks about him every so often. I think she lost any real interest in politics after he died and considers it the point when things fundamentally started to go wrong.

It is amazing to think that a major party leader - prime minister in waiting essentially - could drop dead relatively young and be basically forgotten now.

My mum used to work in local government (the AMA, later merging to become the LGA) and spent a lot of time with a lot of politicians over the years. She doesn't have much good to say about most of them (inside scoop: everyone hated David Blunkett but loved his dog, Gordon Brown would have terrifying panic attacks before any major speeches) but she absolutely loved John Smith.  Pretty much the only bygone politician she still talks about with any fondness.

I'm too young to remember him as I was about 7 or 8 when he was leader, but the passion with which she talks about him has given him an almost mythical status in my head, the man who could have fixed the world. I'm sure that isn't at all true, but from what she says he was a very nice man.

Not convinced by the cult. He seemed to offer sensible leadership after Kinnock's gaffes and windbaggery. And it was that more than distinctive policies that appealed. Though not frightening big business was part of it.

I'm not sure if the sensible perception was genuine or not. Gordon Brown had a similar reputation for a while, till we learned about temper tantrums and he called that woman a bigot. Though it does sound like Smith was a decent guy.

Blair appealed to more people as a non-politician than Smith's technocratic appeal. Would Smith have been better or more cautious? Bearing in mind how especially the early years of Blair saw massive public spending funded by dodgy shit like private finance for schools and hospitals, deregulation, borrowing, etc, leading to the 2008 crash and Cameron.

Quote from: Utter Shit on May 12, 2024, 10:05:41 AMMy mum used to work in local government (the AMA, later merging to become the LGA) and spent a lot of time with a lot of politicians over the years. She doesn't have much good to say about most of them (inside scoop: everyone hated David Blunkett but loved his dog, Gordon Brown would have terrifying panic attacks before any major speeches) but she absolutely loved John Smith.  Pretty much the only bygone politician she still talks about with any fondness.

I'm too young to remember him as I was about 7 or 8 when he was leader, but the passion with which she talks about him has given him an almost mythical status in my head, the man who could have fixed the world. I'm sure that isn't at all true, but from what she says he was a very nice man.

Mine did too and I remember her being gutted when he died.

Quote from: kalowski on May 12, 2024, 10:02:50 AM

This was the first thing that came into my head tbh.

Sally Phillips did a song at Cluub Zarathustra called "where oh where has John Smith" gone, followed by a dance to "It's my party, I'll cry if I want to."

That's all I know. Bit too young. Cheers.

I do wish he hadn't died though. And that we lived in his timeline instead of this one. Fuck Blair.

The country wouldn't have accepted a baldy Prime Minister at the height of Britpop.

Difficult to know, isn't it?

I was in sixth form at the time, and I remember the mood of the common room was sombre at his demise. I think there was a sense that his appointment as leader, combined with the Tories being in full self-destruct mode, and the general wave of optimism following the fall of the Berlin wall and related developments in Eastern Europe, meant that Things Were About to Get Better.

I was too young to understand whether his driving through One Member One Vote was a Good Thing or a Bad Thing - but it seemed to be a Big Thing at the time, judging from the amount of press attention it received. It did seem to have the effect of lending credibility to the party, so I suspect contributed to the overall sense of 'government in waiting'.

If he had become PM, it's hard to know what would have happened. It seems that prior to his death, Blair and co were already agitating about tax and spend, and it seems likely that party divisions and discipline would have been challenging. Perhaps they'd have held it together for the first term - and likely the economy would have bounced under any leadership - but given what we know know about the ruthless ambition of Labour's rightwing, I suspect things would probably have turned out much the same way in the end with Smith becoming something of a Charles Kennedy-like victim.

I'm really surprised conspiracy theories about his abrupt demise in relation to the convenient rise of Blair thereafter aren't more widespread.

(sorry that this is from the Telegraph and that worse still it commits the idiotic mistake of confusing 2004 for 1994, I mean they're not even in the same millennium! but it's the only thing I could find online that remotely seemed to relate to the idea)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/7976017/Tony-Blair-predicted-John-Smiths-early-death.html

He was such a good drinker he had a beer named after him

Old Peculier. Bit disrespectful.

Quote from: ajsmith2 on May 12, 2024, 12:40:20 PMI'm really surprised conspiracy theories about his abrupt demise in relation to the convenient rise of Blair thereafter aren't more widespread.

It was before everyone went completely bananas.

Quote from: Mobbd on May 12, 2024, 02:47:09 PMIt was before everyone went completely bananas.

Was it? How come there seems little easily accessible trace of it online then? Memory holed by Blair and acolytes?

Quote from: Plunge on May 12, 2024, 12:56:14 PMHe was such a good drinker he had a beer named after him

Barbican? That was non-alcoholic

Quote from: ajsmith2 on May 12, 2024, 12:40:20 PMI'm really surprised conspiracy theories about his abrupt demise in relation to the convenient rise of Blair thereafter aren't more widespread.

(sorry that this is from the Telegraph and that worse still it commits the idiotic mistake of confusing 2004 for 1994, I mean they're not even in the same millennium! but it's the only thing I could find online that remotely seemed to relate to the idea)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/7976017/Tony-Blair-predicted-John-Smiths-early-death.html

It's also in The Comic Strip Presents The Hunt for Tony Blair, though in that he says it to Mandelson rather than Cherie. I hadn't known about it until I saw this film (1m 50s in). Shocking stuff.


Fun fact - in Stephen Frears' wonderful film The Deal, Smith is played by Frank Kelly who also played Father Jack Hackett.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHINP2UzLOU

Quote from: ajsmith2 on May 12, 2024, 03:07:55 PMWas it? How come there seems little easily accessible trace of it online then?

Internet

Quote from: ajsmith2 on May 12, 2024, 12:40:20 PMhttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/7976017/Tony-Blair-predicted-John-Smiths-early-death.html

Quote"If John dies, I will be leader, not Gordon. And somehow, I think this will happen. I just think it will."

Blair is kinda like Noel Edmonds, isn't he. Except Noel is too smart to fall for that whole Catholicism scam.

He should start phoning up people's pets. Advise them to sell thier cages to an efficent private sector service provider, and rent them back.

You have to wonder if Smith would have abandoned clause 4 as rapidly and wholeheartedly as Blair did, or even if he would have committed to renationalising. Maybe not the stand alone firms like BP or BT but certainly the water and electricity boards wouldn't be in the shit state they are now

(Or the Tories would just have sold them off again come 2010)

Quote from: ajsmith2 on May 12, 2024, 12:40:20 PMI'm really surprised conspiracy theories about his abrupt demise in relation to the convenient rise of Blair thereafter aren't more widespread.

his name is too boring

I was there and he was a less mental Gordon Brown. He still believed that being competent and somewhat honest were enough to be a good politician.

He was at heart a Wilson/Callaghan figure (he was a minister in Callaghan's government) so he'd have led a centre left government, with all the attendant attacks from the media and business/war communities and the soul crushing compromises they create.

I suspect New Labour would still have come but later and with less force as the party wouldn't have been so desperate for success.

Overall a decent bloke but still massively of the establishment and certainly no threat to the status quo. He'd probably have served two terms before shuffling off to the Lords.

He'd have been despised here (assuming his survival didn't change the composition and views of this forum, which is impossible to predict of course)

Quote from: jamiefairlie on May 12, 2024, 05:21:11 PMOverall a decent bloke but still massively of the establishment and certainly no threat to the status quo. He'd probably have served two terms before shuffling off to the Lords.

He'd have been despised here (assuming his survival didn't change the composition and views of this forum, which is impossible to predict of course)

I suppose that leads to the question of whether Smith would have tagged along with Bush Jnr's Middle East/Afghan misadventures or (like Wilson) he'd have told the Americans "nah, not today".

Had he lived to the next election I think it's likely he would of won and that he would of enjoyed a groundswell of support from the public,  most of whom where just happy to get rid of the Tory Party.

Difficult to say beyond that. 

Quote from: M-CORP on May 12, 2024, 09:28:42 AM

Coming back to this thread and watching this video again, having seen it countless times before, I remember something I found striking, which is the fact that even Margaret Thatcher felt compelled to deliver an almost complimentary tribute (see 2:20), and she wasn't exactly one to talk positively about the opposition, let along say their leader was 'ideal for the task'.

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on May 12, 2024, 05:38:48 PMI suppose that leads to the question of whether Smith would have tagged along with Bush Jnr's Middle East/Afghan misadventures or (like Wilson) he'd have told the Americans "nah, not today".

He's have tried to walk the tightrope, do some sort of support but trying to keep it minimal. He was certainly no war monger.

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on May 12, 2024, 05:42:26 PMHad he lived to the next election I think it's likely he would of won and that he would of enjoyed a groundswell of support from the public,  most of whom where just happy to get rid of the Tory Party.

Difficult to say beyond that. 

Of you thought about that hard?

Hard to imagine him being around in the same era as Bush Jnr. Seems like he existed purely in black and white. Was he actually black and white in real life?

He could have been a figure as well known as John Majors or Tony Blairs and yet he is largely forgotten. In fact, my own memory of him is largely the Alexei Sayle sketches about his ineffectualness.

Folks who talk about what a great Prime Minister JS would have been remind me of when a rock star dies young and people speculate on what great music we've been denied. Wishful thinking, with not much to back it up.