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Can we please ban these annoying ass posts? There should just be a sticky/automod response that says “yes, in case you haven’t heard, Germans in Germany speak German. So if you want to speak with the Germans in Germany, please learn German. And yes, working all but the most menial jobs usually involves speaking German with Germans. And no, 2 weeks on LingoDingo does not count as having learned the language. And no, please don’t expect random German people to be your personal translators. And no, if you aren’t ready to hear that, maybe Germany is not for you.”
Rule #1 (No off topic posts) pretty much covers that. If a post is mainly about "how to learn German for <whatever reason>" it's on-topic. If it's about "how deal with Germans in Germany <speaking little German>" it's off-topic and will usually be deleted and deflected to r/Germany by the mods.
Up vote for "LingoDingo" 😂
We should refer these posters to LingoDingo ... yes they have several chapters on how not to learn German when going to Germany.
"LingoDingo" was the best part of this rage xDD
My dad has actually been living in Germany for TEN WHOLE YEARS now and only knows how to say hallo and mit Karte bitte. He always gets mad when no one wants to translate things for him and it's so annoying. He also works in a company where you pretty much NEED to know German to work there. He just let's his friends translate everything for him. I hate these kinds of people. If you decide to live in a country then you should learn it's language. Stop making yourself look stupid.
Well, he's surprisingly clever and resourceful enough to surround him self with enough stupid people that will gladly play free of charge translator.
If they haven't let him go from his job where speaking German is a requirement and there are enough well-meaning idiots that will let themselves be taken advantage of, then that's on them, really.
Once you are old enough to gain some distance, I think getting away from him for a bit will do you good.
Distance did do me good. I moved away maybe a year ago and it's so peaceful knowing I don't have to translate things for him anymore.
I mean he’d have to be very good at his job to be around for 10 years without the language
I've never understood people who move to a different country and refuse to learn the language. Like, I get learning languages are hard but you've got the perfect opportunity to practice any time you want to. Why would you spend 10 years not able to interact with your neighbours, coworkers, or people on the street?
So they have an excuse not to interact with your neighbours, coworkers, or people on the street
They could just pretend to not speak the language when they encounter people they do not want to talk to.
This is actually what most Western "expats" in Asian countries do. Especially prevalent in Southeast Asia because that part of the world has a mentality of "live and let live, just ignore the funny foreigners - they don't know any better anyway". It's not that the "expats" refuse to learn in principle. They just don't have much interest in local languages.
And yeah, this include German "expats" too. They also join in the endless complaints of "why can't anyone speak English for shit here?"
"Nur bar"
"It's ok I only want to drink"
I hope you've been upfront with him about that. Tell him about all of the opportunities he's probably missed over an entire decade, not to mention what happens when he's running an errand alone or without German-speaking friends?
Why 'mit Karte bitte'?
I presume for when making purchases? If you pay with cash, you need more language skills
Oh,thanks.
So many people here mention that it is okay if you work for an international company.
Guys, you are sabotaging yourself. Yea I also work in tech and have worked for several big companies. And yes, you can get by without speaking German. But is that advisable? Surely not.
You are limiting your pool of available jobs. Even though there are big companies that offer jobs that don't require German, there are others that don't. As of right now, the market is still favorable for skilled workers in tech, but that might change one day, it already has gotten worse than back in 2020.
You are also limiting your ability to network. Yes, people speak English but, surprise surprise, there are still many native German speakers in Germany. They will speak English with you, but you won't reach the same level with them as if you spoke German.
Also it will be a lot harder to make friends because, again, many people in Germany speak German as their first language. If you are a university student, all good. You have a trillion friends anyway, and if you don't you'll just go to the next party and there you go. But being older, it becomes a lot harder because time is a fairly limited resource, many people have families and so on. Yes, you can still make friends but again, you severely limit your pool of potential friends.
And then there is everyday life. It will be harder to deal with bureaucracy, you will have a disadvantage in renting a flat because not every landlord can or wants to speak English, small talk with your neighbors, your regular Dönermann or your dude at your favorite kiosk? Might be possible, but a lot harder. You will be left out in many situations, because you didn't bother to learn the language of the country you live in.
Yes you can survive in Germany only speaking English but basically, you will always be some kind of a tourist.
And don't even get me started on raising your kids here. Yes, they will learn German in school but how much harder will it be for them? You won't be able to efficiently communicate with some teachers, you won't be able to help them as efficiently and you will set a bad example because you are too lazy to learn the language of the country you live in.
I have had several colleagues that did not speak German and they all complained about at least one of those points. And here is what I don't understand:
If you work for an international tech company you are most likely educated, you went to university, have a degree and so on. So you should know how to learn stuff. Learning a language is not hard per se, it just takes time and effort. Why would you choose to live here if you don't want to invest that time and effort?
If, back in the 60's, some uneducated dude from a tiny village in East Anatolia came here in order to work in a mine in Ruhrpott all day - I get it.
But, as an academic? Just why?
It’s hard work to move to a new country, it’s hard work to start a new job and it’s actually really hard to learn a new language (certainly once you get past the initial beginner stage), especially if your brain is fried in the evenings. And if you don’t have to use the language at work, you have to actively seek out opportunities to engage with people in the evenings, which can be hard and certainly is tiring.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t learn the language of your new country, but it’s not as easy as a lot of people think, even if you actually want to. And let’s face it, even if you try, it will be a long while before your German is better than the average German’s English.
Then there are people who are moving to a country for a short, fixed time, e.g. they got a 2-3 year long job somewhere and are planning to move back home afterwards. If that’s a demanding job, they are probably only going to learn the very basics because it’s more important to them to secure another job at home or elsewhere afterwards and they get by with a small about of German, in this case. Occasionally those people get another job in the same country and all of a sudden they’ve been there 5 years and don’t speak the language.
It definitely is hard and I have a lot of respect for everyone who does it. But it is what you sign up for if you migrate. At least if your goal is to do better than just "getting by".
And let's be honest: we, as in tech guys, are quite privileged. Good payment, flexible work hours, company programs, Bildungsurlaub and all that. If you work ten hours a day at some shady construction site under probably rather illegal working conditions, worried about making ends meet every month and sending some money home - then you probably just can't do it, even if you wanted to. You don't get that chance.
But as a tech guy you have all the resources available. It still takes a lot of effort and hard work, but it will be worth it if you are planning on staying here.
Learning enough of the new country's language to get by while you continue learning the language should be part of "moving to a new country". Yes, learning a new language is hard work. But if you want to move abroad, it's part of the package deal. Don't expect everyone else in your new country to accommodate your unwillingness to learn their language if it was YOUR decision to move there.
I work in a sector where your expected to move internationally every 2-3 years before you have enough of a track record to net a more permanent position and settle down somewhere. It's not always possible to fit i all in.
For the record, unlike the majority of people, I started learning Welsh as soon as I moved to Wales and I had only planned on staying here for 3 years. So I totally agree with you, but in my post I was highlighting some reasons why people might not.
Yes, I wish the Germans who came to France, South Korea, Vietnam etc would understand this instead of just complaining that everyone doesn't speak English.
I think you’re assuming they are moving to Germany for the long term, only then would someone want to get the full benefits out of local opportunities and networks, and only then would someone feel that the ability to make German friends or navigate the German school system is absolutely necessary. You say you work in tech so you might have heard about those scouting teams of international companies? Ones that go to another country to collaborate with locals talents to try to open up a new market. Some of them go on 6 months to 2 year placements with the understanding that if things don’t go well they’d be called back to their home country. How could you expect people to spend 3+ years mastering a language to the level required to take advantage of the opportunities you mentioned, when usually the companies decides where to place them only a few months prior? And then as the other commenter mentioned, some lines of work (I’m guessing international organisations like the UN) requires one to rotate in different countries on short placements before you have enough experience to apply for permanent positions. It’s just unrealistic to require them to talk to the company and go “yeah listen can I take a gap year between placements in this incredibly competitive line of work to learn the local language so that I do t offend some Redditor’s? Thank you very much”.
To be honest I think your expectations towards language learning is also quite European. It may be the case that well-educated people in Europe find it achievable to learn a foreign language in a short time. Not so where I come from (China). Because of how English is taught there people spend 16 years learning English if they are university educated and even then many don’t speak English to a conversational level, because the education is too focused on reading and listening to show spoken standard pronunciation English. There is just no resource and people don’t generally have the experience to learn a language fast. Being an academic doesn’t matter at all, because being an academic just means you are good at taking written tests.
Also, when I studied German at school the German education department used to send German teachers for each school. I’ve met 4 of them, none of whom knew any Chinese before they come (beyond hello sorry and thank you ) and only one tried to seriously learn the language (I.e. beyond office curtesy and grocery needs), but they all got by just fine. No one thought they were asses, because they were all on short term placements, and we all knew how hard our language can be for someone from another linguistic family (although this somehow escapes many people from the Germanic and Latin language families, I tend to find). Of course, it was also because they weren’t complaining people had bad English/German and did their best to patiently communicate. But I feel most people working short placements in Germany do too.
Well, I'm talking about people migrating to Germany, as in permanently moving here. If you come for a fixed period and then leave again that is a different thing of course.
Also I personally don't mind speaking English with neither co-workers nor with friends, let alone be offended if someone doesn't learn German. My whole post was not moralistic and I certainly didn't call anyone an ass for not learning German. I think it is a bad choice for them themselves if they plan on staying here.
That is what I witnessed from co-workers and friends that didn't learn German, in one way or the other. If someone else makes other experiences I'm happy for them, I just don't think it is a good idea for most people - based on what I have seen and heard.
Alright, if you meant people who move permanently and not in a moralistic way I agree with you that learning German has more utility. I thought you were defending OP, who seems to have a more aggressive stance.
I was in Germany for two years, I speak quite good German. But, if you work in tech, surrounded by English speaking colleagues (even if they are German), you can spend decades in Germany without reaching German proficiency. Simply to reach proficiency, you need people around you to speak your target language.
Just because it’s a thing that happens doesn’t mean that living, working, and possibly raising the next generation in a country with zero language knowledge is a good idea, nor should it be encouraged. This isn’t even a German question, it’s a common sense question.
100% agree. I work in tech as well but this doesn’t change the fact that I’m always trying to do things in German. We need to. This country official language is not “oh you can survive in English here”…
Heck, I went to the cinema to watch movies in German, even if I don’t know all of the sentences. My colleagues were surprised and asked why I didn’t went to watch with OVs lol because I’m in Germany…?
Anyway, imagine when I decide to have kids? I don’t want them to be in a small bubble of immigrants who don’t know/didn’t decided to learn Deutsche…
It's simply exhausting. Germans switch to English when there is a slightest misunderstanding.
I've had mixed luck tbh. Sometimes I visit Germany when I haven't spoken a word of the language in 6 months and I'm really rusty and end up speaking a fair amount of English because I'm obviously struggling (especially if it's day 1 and I'm jetlagged).
Places where I rarely try to speak German: Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin(? been ages since I've been there), Hamburg
Places with mixed success: Dortmund, Vienna, Düsseldorf
Places with high success: Essen, Oberhausen, Innsbruck, Salzburg, Hannover, Leipzig, Stuttgart, Karlsruhe, random small towns/villages
What you said about working in tech and speaking English is true. The point isn't to hide in an international tech company. But I've worked in tech companies in the US where we had people in Europe, including Germany. All official writing was in English. I did speak to some Germans in German in chat apps a few times. I'm sure in person they speak German to their team outside of official meetings.
And obviously, if you go downtown in the big cities to restaurants and hotels, everyone will be speaking English. If you have things you want to do outside of the city centers, higher chances you'll be able to practice. Just put yourself in some situations to practice. Think about what you're going to say in advance, and anticipate responses. If you're in line, listen to what they're saying to the people in front of you.
And most of them switch back to German if you politely ask them for that
And I keep speaking in German anyway and then check at the end they have understood. All of my colleagues know, I want to speak german with them. We then do one morning a week, where we speak and practice english.
People say this but it’s never happened to me, maybe my German is better than I think or it’s a regional thing.
In my experience, I disagree... But maybe because even when they try to switch to English, I keep speaking my newbie level German, with some weird "Denglish" and eventually when the sentences picks up, we speak German lol
I always see people talk about this but it’s actually (fortunately) never happened to me. Everyone always talks to me in German even if I’m a little slow at times
Then continue speaking in Deutsch. (Or even better, tell them that you'd prefer to speak in Deutsch in order to better your Deutsch.) They get the idea and return to Deutsch.
Yes, it can be exhausting but it's also necessary to speak and listen in Deutsch to become fluent. Even in Berlin it's possible. Almost all the locals I know speak Deutsch with me once they know it's my preference.
Jokes on you I guess 😂
Because we prioritize efficiency. If there is an actual topic being discussed the slightest bit of "this point would be clearer in english" will mean that english likely will be spoken. Like: Are we prioritizing the topic or your german skills? This Party also happens out of courtesy. You can of course requests, to be spoken to inbgerman, but don't demand it, if there is an actual job to do. You'd just come across as a nuisance in regards to progress in job setting. I am not remotely scolding you (especially not you in particular) here. It's just as frustrating when some are almost mad at germans for switching to english. I don't have any problem speaking german, If someone asks me to. Just ask.
why would you do that to yourself? Dubbing is...a crime against cinema. There are so many ways to expose yourself to the language and you choose the worst one?
They're gonna learn German anyway, because they're kids. They're language learning machines. By the time they've had some years in school, they'll be proficient in German regardless of how well you speak it.
Because watching movies is what I like to do...? Also, it was a German movie. I don't see any issues with that, and I 100% disagree that this is the worst one
And they will always have a disadvantage because their parents won't be able to communicate with all of their teachers, at least not as efficiently as someone who speaks German, won't be able to socialize with parents of their peers as well as someone who speaks German. They won't be able to help with their homework and efficiently as someone who understands German, won't be able to communicate with trainers from their Sportverein or music school as efficiently (or not at all) and so on. Also they are a pretty bad role model for their children because they are too lazy to learn the language of the country they live in and they don't integrate well.
Apart from that, it is certainly possible. But it is neither advisable nor responsible as a parent.
No it’s not. There are plenty of talented VO artists.
I've been on this sub for a long time, and whenever this topic comes up, there are always people who like to argue that from their personal experience, you can totally get by without any German, and recommend this to other foreigners. And then they complain that all the services (banks, administration) should be available to them in English. And Germany should be more welcoming to foreigners...
And I don't think you can change their opinion buy banning those posts...
same in Wien, people come here based on the awful advice that English will suffice in every situation, and then they feel angry when it doesn’t. Ein Ausländer mit dem ich nicht mehr befreundet bin, nennt mich jetzt „der gute Ausländer” weil ich mir Mühe gegeben hab, Deutsch zu lernen 😂 mittlerweile wohnt er seit 4 Jahren in Wien und überlegt sich einen A1 Kurs zu besuchen. “Alle sind gegen mich!” ich liebs 😂
Da bekomme ich direkt Hass. Mit solchen Leuten möchte ich auch absolut nicht befreundet sein denn mit Freunden spreche ich nunmal Deutsch.
Honestly, I think Germany should become more English-friendly if it wants to remain an attractive country for highly-skilled employees. Not in day-to-day life of course, mostly the stuff needed for moving to Germany.
And there we go again...
I agree with you, but if your kid goes to a German public school they will undoubtedly speak German natively.
As a German… At least they try but they won’t speak it perfectly if they don’t speak it at home.
That is just blatantly untrue. Kids can usually pick up a language fluently and accent-free if they arrive in a country up til about 13-15 years old, let alone if they're being raised from birth in Germany, assuming they attend a German-language school in that time.
They learn it so fast, I wouldn’t worry about that too much. But I think they need to go to kindergarden as soon as possible, so they have the chance to learn German before they go to school.
But „perfectly“.. no German kid speaks perfectly for a long time and most kids speak NEVER perfectly German. Most adults don’t, to be honest. When we were in 11th class, our new German teacher let us write dictations for half a year, because this class made so much mistakes in spelling, grammar and punctuation. 😂
But to be aware of this, you either have to be very keen on Latin or be a Deutschlehrer or both - the only person I know who really speaks perfect German all the time is in fact German teacher for ground school, but now teaches adults. I think, one has to be a bit quirky, to love Latin or grammar. 😉 I loved Latin so much, it has a mathematical beauty. Well..
Back to topic: My neighbor kid spoke only her language till she came into kindergarden, she learned so fast and now is in Gymnasium.
Ok, yes, there is an insame amount of immigrants-children, who really don’t understand the language when they come to school, which is a big problem. For them, for the classes, for the schools. But if the children can go to kindergarden first, they have really good chances to learn enough German just in time.
The kids I know, who had German-speaking friends in the neighborhood and went to the Kindergarten at three or four years old have had no problems so far.
Exactly. If you come and live here for a long time and still don't learn the language, you don't respect the country or the people and not willing to integrate into German society.
I can 2nd this.
My main client is a multinational company which actually hires non German speaking personnel (Indians) in IT. They typically end up in a locked in position with no/minimum career development because they never learn the language. Sometimes, when they lose their job for whatever reason they have children in school who speak perfekt German but the breadwinner fails to secure a new job.... this can end pretty bad.
How about you spend some time online discussing in german, that’s how my English got the yellow from the egg. Most people usually take about 3-6 years to speak German in a way they don’t stick out as the guy that’s barely speaking German.
My experience as well. I have to go well out of my way and make much effort to speak German to someone. I ended up joining clubs for that. Luckily, universities usually have many recreational activities where you can meet new people (big bands, book clubs, barbecues, etc.).
Oh man, definitely do not attempt if you’re raising the next generation. Even if you CAN get around as a professional, note that dealing with the kind of people who want to go (or I should say allowed to) go into teaching work or child development means you will have to deal with German or the behavioral diagnoses assigned to bilingual kids. If you can actually consistently make it from kindergarten through university and not have your kids deal with any German speakers then you do not need to consult Reddit. You already have a nuclear solid relocation service or insulated community that has exclusive advice.
Tell them you want to practice and improve your german. If they will not do it all the time, either just keep speaking german, or at the very least arrange to have german speaking mornings/days.
You control the words that come out of your mouth
I am studying in a „Studentenstadt“ so there are a lot of international students, which means everyone speaks English a lot, even German people. After living here for 1 year I can confidently say you can survive with little to no German (I can speak german quite fluently). But there is a huge difference between surviving and fitting in. It is important to acknowledge that the reason some german feel so “cold” to you is not just because they are “cold”, but also some are not confident with their English ( which I find hilarious because they speak it like native speakers….) So speaking german, or just showing efforts of learning it is a great way to fit in.
I'm making a big effort to learn German before I move for school in a few months to fit in and just because I think it's cool.
I will say, I think there's a point to provide English translations to a large portion of society, especially with commercial settings. We're in a globalized world, and getting foreign workers is important. Forcing people to learn a language they can only speak in one country just isn't practical. However, I don't want to pretend that it's "right" (whatever that means to you) that someone can just come in and put no effort into local customs and life.
I hate that foreigners don’t wanna learn German in GERMANY and complain…
P.S.: It’s A okay if you don’t wanna learn it for a vacation or a short trip but it’s not okay if you wanna live here. Thats just rude.
Reminds me of the dude that came into r/Serbian complaining about people in Serbia speaking Serbian and not English....... In fucking SERBia
Damn those Serbians most be very rude. How could they? 😂
Literally his exact words, he kept going off about how Serbs are so backwards and Serbian is worthless and pointless as a language. Meanwhile it makes German look like it's a walk in the park lmao
Yeah… That dude seems kinda dumb.
I was in a FB group for Americans moving to Germany and this one guy was constantly complaining about being expected to learn German. He would always say English is an international language and that Germans should be required to learn and speak it in Germany. And that it was ridiculous that they still spoke German here. 😄
Yeah, it’s crazy. I live in France near Germany and the amount of Germans complaining they have to speak French drives me wild.
Yess, that dude was super rude! When told that younger Serbians can communicate in English he specified that he needed them to speak like a native with preferably no accent, otherwise they wouldn't be of any use to him. He got shredded in both English and Serbian, glorious to see.
It's so arrogant to expect the people to adjust to your needs and preferences when you're the one coming into their circle.
I love how he changed his nationality so many times lmao. Diaspora of any country often have the weirdest idea of what that country should be like and it's very funny. Like I've a friend who's mum is from Novi Sad and I mentioned like travelling to Serbia some time and she was acting like it was the middle of a war zone, which is like ok Serbia isn't like some place where you can just walk around carefree and clueless but it's not like idk an active war zone full mafia den in its second largest city 😭😭😭
Also jesi gastarbajter by any chance? 😳😳
The dude definitely had some issues. Funnily enough he posted that the same day I was praising the English of one of my cousin's kid who's from Serbia, what a coincidence. In some forums people still ask if it's safe to travel to Serbia. As if you're gonna get robbed the second you step foot into the country lol
Nisam gastarbajter. Moj deda i baka doji u nemačkom kod moj majko i tetke. Kad sam bio mali baba i deda uči mene malo srpski. Razumem puno, ali ne mogu da pričam lepo. As you can see my grammar is awful and I use very simple words, partly very wrong. It gets better when I visit my family in Serbia but I'm trying to learn. Sadly there aren't many resources out there to learn the language but I gather as much as I can.
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Because German is the native language of Germany and Germans are not Dutch.
It’s called Denglish and it’s the normal process every language experiences. We could obviously invent an new word for every new English word but that would be dumb. Gecatched is erwischt, gementioned is erwähnt but there isn’t a word that perfectly describes geliked. So geliked would be used by normal Germans. Gecatched and gementioned are only used by "special groups" of people.
Gefälltmirt? Gegefälltmirt? I don't know, sounds awkward. Let's stick with "geliked", everybody knows what it means.
It would be "Gefällt mir" but you can’t use it the same way you can use "geliked"
Germans are not Dutch. No shit. Thank God Netherlands and the Dutch exist, right?